Full displacement underwater profile

[babylek]

I have been looking at "Dutch Steel" single engine cruisers. Can anyone please tell me 2 things: 1) What does "Full-displacement underwater profile." mean? 

2) Would a 11m cruiser like this be OK to take on the Med over to Mallorca?

[Tony Brooks]

The full displacement bit means that the hull is not designed to plane so will be limited in speed to around 6 knots. If you try to go any faster the stern will just drop lower and lover and the wash becomes greater.

Any boat, even a tin bath, could do what you suggest but that all depends upon weather, tides and the skippers experience. If it has a small single engine (say around 1500 CC) then the hull should be OK but how about you. There may be a time issue. If the engine is larger and can maintain the maximum hull speed AND you have the experience then I would suggest its doable.

[babylek]

Thanks, Tony, I was thinking of buying a boat somewhere down on the French canal taking it down to the Med and waiting for a millpond sea and then doing the crossing. Maybe I should look for a marina that could put in Air Con for the hot Spanish weather.

[Phil Ambrose]

Full displacement is just a way if saying it is not a planing hull ie one which enables the boat to travel over the surface of the water, " on the plane"

I suspect this boat could make sea passage but with respect if you have to ask what a displacement hull is and if it could tackle the Med, then you should not be tackling the task as you are clearly lacking in experience.

Phil

[Naughty Cal]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

The full displacement bit means that the hull is not designed to plane so will be limited in speed to around 6 knots. If you try to go any faster the stern will just drop lower and lover and the wash becomes greater.

Any boat, even a tin bath, could do what you suggest but that all depends upon weather, tides and the skippers experience. If it has a small single engine (say around 1500 CC) then the hull should be OK but how about you. There may be a time issue. If the engine is larger and can maintain the maximum hull speed AND you have the experience then I would suggest its doable.

They tend to be a damn sight bigger engines then that.

There are several at our marina now that our friends have bought ranging from a 2.4 litre 100hp to a 6.2 litre 150 hp single diesel.

As you say though they reach their hull speed and that is it they don't go any quicker just make some monster wash. They are good for about 7 or 8 knots depending on the hull and will sit at that speed all day long.

[keith.]

47 minutes ago, babylek said:

I have been looking at "Dutch Steel" single engine cruisers.

 

The advert would suggest it is a twin!  https://www.boatshowrooms.com/boats-for-sale/london/stevens-1140-dutch-steel-cruiser/

[Naughty Cal]

15 minutes ago, keith. said:

The advert would suggest it is a twin!  https://www.boatshowrooms.com/boats-for-sale/london/stevens-1140-dutch-steel-cruiser/

Twin 65hp. 

Not a common set up in that type of boat.

Also worth pointing out to the OP that these boats were on the whole fully customiseable by the first owner so the layouts differ greatly from boat to boat even within the same hull.

Some don't have an internal helm position, just the fly bridge helm which gives greater internal accomodation in the saloon.

Some are fitted out to suit a couple so just have an aft master cabin and more seating in the bow rather then the twin berths.

The galleys tend to be on the small side in the boats with a forward sleeping cabin. 

With this in mind you need to have a good look around and find the fit out that suits you best.

ETA:

A couple of Pedro 30's with completely different layouts:

https://www.tbsboats.com/boats-for-sale/pedro-30/

https://www.tbsboats.com/boats-for-sale/pedro-30-3/

Also worth pointing out that these boats get very hot in the summer so may not be an ideal choice for the med.

Some very good friends took theirs over to France a couple of years ago and have to come back to the UK every summer for a few months as it is just too hot.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Naughty Cal

[babylek]

35 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Full displacement is just a way if saying it is not a planing hull ie one which enables the boat to travel over the surface of the water, " on the plane"

I suspect this boat could make sea passage but with respect if you have to ask what a displacement hull is and if it could tackle the Med, then you should not be tackling the task as you are clearly lacking in experience.

Phil

Maybe I could mooch around the French or Spanish coast for a couple of months and gain some experience before making the Mallorca crossing. 

 

1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

Twin 65hp. 

Not a common set up in that type of boat.

Also worth pointing out to the OP that these boats were on the whole fully customiseable by the first owner so the layouts differ greatly from boat to boat even within the same hull.

Some don't have an internal helm position, just the fly bridge helm which gives greater internal accomodation in the saloon.

Some are fitted out to suit a couple so just have an aft master cabin and more seating in the bow rather then the twin berths.

The galleys tend to be on the small side in the boats with a forward sleeping cabin. 

With this in mind you need to have a good look around and find the fit out that suits you best.

Thanks it's a toss-up between a Birchwood TS37 and a Dutch steel boat. Still not made my mind up, but leaning towards the Dutch Steel.

[Athy]

Does the Med. often, or ever, get rough in the way that the North Sea or the Channel can? It has virtually no tides, though whether that leads to greater smoothness I am not sure.

[X Alan W]

41 minutes ago, babylek said:

Thanks, Tony, I was thinking of buying a boat somewhere down on the French canal taking it down to the Med and waiting for a millpond sea and then doing the crossing. Maybe I should look for a marina that could put in Air Con for the hot Spanish weather.

Why not look into buying a boat in Spain the last time I looked at the classifieds the general price was lower in Spain than France & you could chug around to gain experience for your planned trip 

[Murflynn]

'Full displacement' is a term used to distinguish between non-planing hulls and planing hulls which do not have the usual hard chine of conventional planing hulls.  An example of the latter is the Nelson range of hulls, commonly used for pilot boats and patrol boats, which have a rounded turn where the chine would be, making them more heavy-weather-friendly.  Such boats are described as 'semi-displacement', hence the term 'full displacement' for non-planing hulls.

[Murflynn]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

Does the Med. often, or ever, get rough in the way that the North Sea or the Channel can? It has virtually no tides, though whether that leads to greater smoothness I am not sure.

it can easily get rough enough to be extremely uncomfortable and challenging for a small boat that is not designed for the purpose.  The clue will be found on the CE plate.  A boat suitable for making offshore passages in the Med should be Category A or B.  It is likely that the boat in the photo is Category C, in which case it could safely make the journey in very calm conditions, but you should consider what might happen if the engine fails and then the weather changes?

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

it can easily get rough enough to be extremely uncomfortable and challenging for a small boat that is not designed for the purpose.  The clue will be found on the CE plate.  A boat suitable for making offshore passages in the Med should be Category A or B.  It is likely that the boat in the photo is Category C, in which case it could safely make the journey in very calm conditions, but you should consider what might happen if the engine fails and then the weather changes?

Thanks for clarifying that.

[Tam & Di]

1 hour ago, babylek said:

Thanks, Tony, I was thinking of buying a boat somewhere down on the French canal taking it down to the Med and waiting for a millpond sea and then doing the crossing. Maybe I should look for a marina that could put in Air Con for the hot Spanish weather.

Suitability of the boat also depends upon what you want it for. You talk of air conditioning, which would probably be OK for some occasional use, but if it is for longer periods you want good insulation too (what keeps cold out in winter also keeps heat out in summer). Our son owns a yacht repair business in Palma and he closes it in August as it's too hot to work.

[bizzard]

1 hour ago, babylek said:

Thanks, Tony, I was thinking of buying a boat somewhere down on the French canal taking it down to the Med and waiting for a millpond sea and then doing the crossing. Maybe I should look for a marina that could put in Air Con for the hot Spanish weather.

Or an Eco-fan that works if placed on cold things instead of hot things, on the fridge or freezer for example.

39 minutes ago, Athy said:

Does the Med. often, or ever, get rough in the way that the North Sea or the Channel can? It has virtually no tides, though whether that leads to greater smoothness I am not sure.

Its very deep in most places and storms can whip up a very nasty sea.

[Dr Bob]

36 minutes ago, Athy said:

Does the Med. often, or ever, get rough in the way that the North Sea or the Channel can? It has virtually no tides, though whether that leads to greater smoothness I am not sure.

Maybe not as bad as the North Sea ( over the Norwegian trench) but bad enough. Get a strong Mistral blowing F7 or 8 and the waters around S France can be tough. The problem is the short period between waves so they can be high and steep. We sailed there for 3 years but the calm days are pretty predictable. Either no wind or too much. Not for the inexperienced and you will need your certificate of competence.

[bizzard]

You could always practice, for example, making a passage from Benfleet to Canvey Island in Essex, which will include tidal experience too. And the cockles are good too.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, babylek said:

Would a 11m cruiser like this be OK to take on the Med over to Mallorca?

 

14 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Not for the inexperienced and you will need your certificate of competence.

 

From the questions, I am making a guess that the OP is probably not aware that (unlike the UK) countries surrounding the Med have several 'paperwork' requirements - including 'certificate of competence', you cannot just 'roll-up' with a boat.

It is also a legal requirement to have (on board at all times) Copies of the bill of sale, copies of your insurance certificate (in multiple languages), copies of both your boat VHF licence and your VHF operators certificate, copies of the RCD documentation, and, the VAT paid certificate.

 

Much of that paperwork is often unavailable on UK purchased boats - but if you intend to 'travel' it will become very expensive (fines and the boat being impounded) if you don't have them.

I would suggest that before buying any boat you do more investigation as to what certificates and documentation YOU need to have.

 

I have only made passage thru' the Med, but in the back of my mind I think there is something about having to take local registration if the boat is to be kept there for more than 6 months (Maybe Dr Bob can advise)

[Dr Bob]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have only made passage thru' the Med, but in the back of my mind I think there is something about having to take local registration if the boat is to be kept there for more than 6 months (Maybe Dr Bob can advise)

My knowledge only goes to 2012 so some things may have changed. Certain countries (Spain/Greece) were always threatening the 6 months but I dont think it ever got any traction and seems to be against EU law. If you have a UK flagged boat then you dont need all of the paperwork required in certain countries and you can continually cruise. You will though need proof of  ownership, VAT paid and your certificate of competance which IIRC is easy to get if you are coastal skipper or yachtmaster (or equiv) qualified.

If however you buy a boat in Spain ie a Spanish Flagged vessel, then you will need to go through all the hoops their skippers require - and I think that means getting a yachtmaster equiv qualification which has to be passed in Spanish (includes a written paper). There will be similar requirements in France if the boat is French registered. As Alan says, you cannot just 'turn up' and own a boat.

Has the OP considered the costs of a boat in the med? The marinas are very expensive and particularly in the Balearics. No Red diesel so going from A to B is very expensive if you are motoring. Far too hot in summer. Far too busy as well. A £50K boat will look well out of place in the western med when most of the boats in the marina will be newish and £250K+.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

My knowledge only goes to 2012 so some things may have changed. Certain countries (Spain/Greece) were always threatening the 6 months but I dont think it ever got any traction and seems to be against EU law. If you have a UK flagged boat then you dont need all of the paperwork required in certain countries and you can continually cruise. You will though need proof of  ownership, VAT paid and your certificate of competance which IIRC is easy to get if you are coastal skipper or yachtmaster (or equiv) qualified.

Come 2019/2020 this will all change as any UK registered boat will now become a 'visiting boat' and subjected to the full force of any local laws, without the protection of EU membership.

[babylek]

Thanks to EVERYONE for all that helpful information. How about buying a Dutch Steel boat in France and just cruising the French canals. I had a Fairline Carrera, and a Dawncraft on the Thames about 20 years ago. I had a radio license, would I have to re-take that exam again? I never had any other certificates. Would I need certificates just to cruise the French canals?

[bizzard]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

You could always practice, for example, making a passage from Benfleet to Canvey Island in Essex, which will include tidal experience too. And the cockles are good too.

It is a muddy passage so nice and soft if you happen to run aground. Walking about in the mud is good for reumatism and arseritis. Also much cooler than the Med. No skipper certificates or other bureaucratic nonsense required either.   You also would pass ''Two Tree Island'', the island from where your nasel senses will be exhilerated by the pleasant, romantic, wonderful and exotic aroma exuding from the sewage farm from where lovely ripe tomatoes can be picked,  take a peg.   Down side.. Most pubs only sell lager.

Edited October 3, 2017 by bizzard

[Tam & Di]

9 minutes ago, babylek said:

Would I need certificates just to cruise the French canals?

You would need an ICC with inland endorsement (obtained by test of the CEVNI rules which are the highway code for continental boating). People do cruise French waterways with a cruiser style craft but they are not the most practical in locks by reason of their hull shape and their hand rails etc always get in the way. Also a twin engined one would mean one prop is very vulnerable to damage as you come in to moor. Horrid as I find them, even a modern wide beam craft would be better, but better still is a small barge with side decks for easy access from bow to stern. You don't mention a partner, but single-handed boating in France would be much more difficult with a cruiser - especially if you don't have a lot ofexperience. You can get some idea of continental cruising on the DBA website www.barges.org

[babylek]

How is it people can just turn up and hire boats on the French canals, and I'd need a ICC?

[Athy]

1 minute ago, babylek said:

How is it people can just turn up and hire boats on the French canals, and I'd need a ICC?

As a fairly frequent hirer on France's canals who has thought about purchase over there, I too have wondered about this example of French official logic at work!

I know nothing of your budget, but ex-hire boats such as pénichettes, which are designed with France's waterways in mind, come up for sale quite often - Locaboat had a few on offer last time I looked. By British standards, they are not bargains though.