Converting working boat to live aboard

[Mick in Bangkok]

I hope I am not entering into antagonist territory here by promoting the conversion of another works or ex working boats into a live board but just wondering if this might be a viable option worth considering.

I have seen such converted working boats  for sale with traditional BMC engine rooms and vintage engines but either a bit tired looking or with unappealing layouts.

If one were to purchase an ex works boat with a solid hull, BMC, engine room and engine with opened front cargo area and commission a reputable boatyard to install a good quality fitout with steel cabin extension including typical pigeon boxes, porthole’s hatches, heating, water tanks, kitchen appliances and joinery etc. to one’s own layout be a practical and economical option worth considering.

Might there be any other considerations such as availability of boatyards capable of carrying out such works without being placed on a waiting list and last but not least could anyone ever guessestimate what such a fit out for a 70’ boat might be without a detailed layout plan or material/equipment specification.

I am seeing ex work boats for sale in the region of 35-65K and ready converted boats in the region of say 75 to 85K and wondering if the budget of 30K (being the difference of the latter boats) would cover commissioning one’s own conversion to one’s own specifications?

Apologies in advance to traditionalists who might find this idea as an affront to the cause.

Cheers Mick

[Athy]

Ready-converted former working boats do come on the market, but not often - one forum member had a very long (two-year?) search before he found an acceptable one.

I suspect (though others will know better than I do) that the cost of doing a conversion properly may be a major factor.

[junior]

Just remember, the prices that boats sell for is usually not what they've been advertised for.

In fact in historic, or ex. work boats as you call them, i suspect the sale price is often considerably less than the price advertised and most hang around for sale for a while.

IMO the going average price for an unconverted boat is £45k ball park. The price for a converted boat £65k ball park. Of course there would be variations either way depending if boats were in exceptional condition (for example a new bottom), or in poor condition and needing significant work.

If you were thinking of converting a historic boat, then 'Otley' would be a very good option. It's already had some conversion done and 'seems' to be a very attractive price.

Personally (and I'm no expert) i think if you were to buy an unconverted boat and convert it and fit it out to any reasonable standard, i think you'd be looking at well over £20k, possibly double, and i doubt it would add that value to an asking price if you were doing to make money (short or long term).

The only way i could ever seeing your idea be viable was if you could do the work yourself. 

[X Alan W]

Depending on your requirements to purchase & get a professional builder to do a conversion you are into big money if you are not "A must have an ex working boat " a more modern boat already converted to me would be a better bet, the draft on ex WB's can also cause problems; again if the boat has it's original or other vintage motor dependent on make spares can be a problem;  To me a better boat to suit your needs from one of the Premier Div builders wold possibly be better suited .

[ditchcrawler]

7 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

I hope I am not entering into antagonist territory here by promoting the conversion of another works or ex working boats into a live board but just wondering if this might be a viable option worth considering.

I have seen such converted working boats  for sale with traditional BMC engine rooms and vintage engines but either a bit tired looking or with unappealing layouts.

If one were to purchase an ex works boat with a solid hull, BMC, engine room and engine with opened front cargo area and commission a reputable boatyard to install a good quality fitout with steel cabin extension including typical pigeon boxes, porthole’s hatches, heating, water tanks, kitchen appliances and joinery etc. to one’s own layout be a practical and economical option worth considering.

Might there be any other considerations such as availability of boatyards capable of carrying out such works without being placed on a waiting list and last but not least could anyone ever guessestimate what such a fit out for a 70’ boat might be without a detailed layout plan or material/equipment specification.

I am seeing ex work boats for sale in the region of 35-65K and ready converted boats in the region of say 75 to 85K and wondering if the budget of 30K (being the difference of the latter boats) would cover commissioning one’s own conversion to one’s own specifications?

Apologies in advance to traditionalists who might find this idea as an affront to the cause.

Cheers Mick

I saw an advert for a nearly new working boat last week in Towpath Talk for under £40K, has a disel tank and pump in the hold but that could be removed and sold on. It looked very good value to me from the add.

http://www.alvecotemarina.co.uk/narrowcraft/brokerage/for-sale/william/

 

[captain birdseye]

I have over the years looked at old working boats and wanted to buy one, the other half however likes her home comforts, so we looked at a the idea of a converted working boat. We came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the hassle and in the end bought a 57' second hand boat from a known builder with a BMC, and a Russell Newbery DM2 in it.

This is a compromise, but gives me the feel of a 'proper' boat along with the look and sound of a traditional engine, and all the mod cons that the wife wanted.

It also goes without the problems of a eighty year old hull, a vintage engine that you can't get spares for , no weed hatch so the odd swim when you can't clean the prop with a boat hook, and getting stuck on the bottom and in bulging or very narrow locks, for example when going through Cheshire locks with a 'historic' boat the other week and having to wait for the right hand lock as the left hand is to narrow.

I love old boats and enjoy working them, but for a beginner, or somebody with a family who just wants to go boating I would say there are plenty of good second hand modern boats with Back cabins and interesting engines in without you having to do lots of work, within the OPs budget. A well known broker has three listed with back cabin and traditional engine this week

[OldGoat]

7 minutes ago, captain birdseye said:

I have over the years looked at old working boats and wanted to buy one, the other half however likes her home comforts, so we looked at a the idea of a converted working boat. We came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the hassle and in the end bought a 57' second hand boat from a known builder with a BMC, and a Russell Newbery DM2 in it.

This is a compromise, but gives me the feel of a 'proper' boat along with the look and sound of a traditional engine, and all the mod cons that the wife wanted.

It also goes without the problems of a eighty year old hull, a vintage engine that you can't get spares for , no weed hatch so the odd swim when you can't clean the prop with a boat hook, and getting stuck on the bottom and in bulging or very narrow locks, for example when going through Cheshire locks with a 'historic' boat the other week and having to wait for the right hand lock as the left hand is to narrow.

I love old boats and enjoy working them, but for a beginner, or somebody with a family who just wants to go boating I would say there are plenty of good second hand modern boats with Back cabins and interesting engines in without you having to do lots of work, within the OPs budget. A well known broker has three listed with back cabin and traditional engine this week

Old boats are for the enthusiast with a large array of skills, spare funds to buy in materials and expertise where needed. Joy if you have all of that. But if not.....   

[Mike Jordan]

Anyone capable of doing the job (or claiming to be) who hasn't got a waiting list, should be regarded with extreme suspicion. No sensible person can give a price without full details of what you want.

[BWM]

The first thing to consider is the condition of the hull, work done here will not be cheap and will involve a waiting list. It will be no use putting any work off as any fitting out would need to be removed to carry it out. 

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I saw an advert for a nearly new working boat last week in Towpath Talk for under £40K, has a disel tank and pump in the hold but that could be removed and sold on. It looked very good value to me from the add.

http://www.alvecotemarina.co.uk/narrowcraft/brokerage/for-sale/william/

 

This isn't particularly a working boat copy though is it.  It has a modern beta engine under boards at the back, and certainly no traditional back cabim.  With that large sliding hatch it almost gives the impression of a kind of semi-trad.

 

2 hours ago, junior said:

Personally (and I'm no expert) i think if you were to buy an unconverted boat and convert it and fit it out to any reasonable standard, i think you'd be looking at well over £20k, possibly double, and i doubt it would add that value to an asking price if you were doing to make money (short or long term).

The only way i could ever seeing your idea be viable was if you could do the work yourself. 

I think there is a huge difference between doing most of a project like this yourself, with just the steelwork done by professionals, and actually paying for large amounts of it to be done by specialists.

Someone like Jim, "Koukouvagia", who had "Owl" and has just done a big rework of "Hampton" has I know in the past published costs where he has done most of the fitting.  They may well be on here if you use "search".  Even he admits it is a labour of love, unlikely to ever see you getting back anything like your total costs on a sale.

I know of a couple of boats that have received full conversions in the last few years, (or maybe have had existing ones replaced?), and at least one of these is still nothing like finished.  In each case the total cost is well into six figures - very well in to six figures in the case of one of them.

Yet I am not really aware of any converted boat where huge amounts of money have been lavished on it ever selling to someone else for much over £80K, I think, (but am happy to be proved wrong).

Note that generally in the world of historic boats taking a significant unconverted motor, and putting a conversion on is not well regarded by many of the enthusiasts.  Yes, it may now be your boat, but don't expect to make many friends by doing it, and expect some hostility if you do.   For this reason we decided that we would only consider boats already carrying a conversion, so we would not be damaging the history and authenticity of one that did not.  Even then you will not have the same revered status in the world of historic boaters as you would have if you were boating around with over 70 feet of boat, but only eight feet of living space and a toilet sharing the same space as the engine!

Edited to add, (slightly tongue in cheek!), that if you get into discussions with historic boat owners, or yards that specialise in historic boats, avoid like the plague the term "BMC" to apply to a back cabin!   BMCs are type of van engine that got marinised for use as a basic boat engine, they are not a living space, unless you own a Hudson, R W Davies, Barry Hawkins or similar boat, or (particularly) if you are an owner or a broker trying to flog one.

Edited October 3, 2017 by alan_fincher

[dmr]

If you fancy living in a working style boat then it would be much better to get a shell builder to make you a brand new replica style shell. this will....

1 Give you a brand new boat

2 Hopefully work out a bit cheaper

3 Not vandalise a bit of history

..............Dave

 

[noddyboater]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

If you fancy living in a working style boat then it would be much better to get a shell builder to make you a brand new replica style shell. this will....

1 Give you a brand new boat

2 Hopefully work out a bit cheaper

3 Not vandalise a bit of history

..............Dave

 

I'd also add to this that you need to be careful who you approach with your ideas. There are plenty of current fabricators that will happily build you a "replica" but only a handful of boatbuilders that actually can. 

These will of course be busy, but my advice would be to be patient rather than go to someone who hasn't really got a clue.

[Tuscan]

If money and resale value is a consideration then I would definitely not go down this route. Unless you have had a boat a few years you will not have a clear idea of what is a must have and what you can do without which if you are fitting a boat out from scratch i believe is essential. We had our boat fitted out to our design but with our eyes open and in the full knowledge we had no chance of recovering the substantial cost in any subsequent sale. It would have made more commercial sense to buy a holiday cottage but boating gets under your skin. 

Having said this with the recent lack of maintenance and dredging together with the longer term stoppages this autumn we might have thought twice if we were about to do the same now.

[David Mack]

By way of example, Lymm Marine (lmbs.co.uk) will sell you a 57 ft Sailaway Lined Additions for around £17k more than the equivalent Sailaway. For that money you get the shell insulated, lined and the bathroom fitted. But you still have to do the rest of the fitout. Add in the cost of work to the hull, adding the cabin shell and then factor up for a full length boat, and you can see it's going to cost you a lot more than £20k to convert a working boat.

Edited October 3, 2017 by David Mack

[koukouvagia]

I haven't got the figures to hand for restoring Owl, but if you want to see what's involved in restoring and converting historic boats, take a look at the two websites below.

The figures for Hampton are, however, fresh in my mind. Over the years, it's cost around £90K.  I fitted out the undercloth conversion myself for around £10k.  

The original uncoverted boat cost £9k, but since then some of the best in the business have sorted out the rotten footings, base and stern, have rebuilt and fitted out the back cabin, have  made a steel ellum with its hydraulic drive.  It's also had a new paint job and has been lettered (by Dave Moore of this forum).

I know I could probably have had a good second hand Hudson for that price, but I like the idea of preserving a 106 year old boat for the next generation.

It's worth noting that a boat like the newly restored but unconverted England is on the market for £65k. Some have expressed shock at such a price, but I bet it reflects realistically what it would cost to do a first class restoration. For another 20 to 30k you could then have a good conversion.

However you do the sums a good converted historic boat will cost around £80k.  You can't do it on the cheap.

 

See www.narrowboatowl.com

and www.buttyhampton.com

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by koukouvagia

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Note that generally in the world of historic boats taking a significant unconverted motor, and putting a conversion on is not well regarded by many of the enthusiasts.  Yes, it may now be your boat, but don't expect to make many friends by doing it, and expect some hostility if you do.   For this reason we decided that we would only consider boats already carrying a conversion, so we would not be damaging the history and authenticity of one that did not. 

Which is one of the reasons why we snapped up Belfast when it came up for sale earlier this year - built 1936 and has carried a full length conversion since 1971.

[dmr]

46 minutes ago, noddyboater said:

I'd also add to this that you need to be careful who you approach with your ideas. There are plenty of current fabricators that will happily build you a "replica" but only a handful of boatbuilders that actually can. 

These will of course be busy, but my advice would be to be patient rather than go to someone who hasn't really got a clue.

But I suspect the op would be happy with something that looked ok rather than a full on genuine replica, and even ColeCraft could do a very reasonable job of that. They built both of the fuel boats that work the K&A.

................Dave

[roland elsdon]

I think the fit out would be 20000 minimum on top of the conversion on top of the foam spray on top of the repairs essential on a converted hull, putting on steel gunnels etc You can spend 10000 on paint and sign writing too if you want... So 50000 on top of unconverted price....oh and 3 year wait

our boat part cabined requires remedial work on the old bits that were fine 20 years ago stuff like leaky engine room doors and un insulated engine hole is fine on an unconverted boat but a pain if there is a forward cabin

[koukouvagia]

3 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

Note that generally in the world of historic boats taking a significant unconverted motor, and putting a conversion on is not well regarded by many of the enthusiasts.  Yes, it may now be your boat, but don't expect to make many friends by doing it, and expect some hostility if you do.   

Yes, I know what you mean.

However Hampton has had an undercloth conversion for at least 40 years.

It is generally thought that one of the reasons for the dearth of historic butties is that very many have been turned into motors. What we, and others, have done is to prevent this from happening.  If someone really wanted to put the wooden ellum back, I know where it is.

I have no intention of having a horse for Hampton in the interests of preserving historic accuracy, hence a horse substitute - an hydraulic drive.

 

[BWM]

I'm not sure who built It, but there was a modern replica of a large grand union called Arundel which worked on the gravel run from Denham. A similar build would make an excellent base for the sort of project you have in mind. 

[pete harrison]

4 minutes ago, BWM said:

I'm not sure who built It, but there was a modern replica of a large grand union called Arundel which worked on the gravel run from Denham. A similar build would make an excellent base for the sort of project you have in mind. 

ARUNDEL was built by Stockton Dry Dock Company in 2003 

[Mick in Bangkok]

Thanks for all the feed back to my post, still a lot to learn and considering all of the pros and cons not to mention cost either a previously converted or good replica is sounding like the best solution  

[John Hartley]

As part of the crew for NB Python a 1930s  ex working boat converted to a canal maintenance boat, I would advise the OP to be extremely careful in his choice of hull. Ours sprang a leak several years ago culminating in a huge bill to have her re-bottomed. Not over plated but a complete new one. Not cheap. Also it draws a lot of water and so on some canals mooring is problematic. On the Trent its spectacular performance is a site to behold. We love her.

[BWM]

33 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

ARUNDEL was built by Stockton Dry Dock Company in 2003 

It is a great looking boat, the lines are true to the original and it didn't need any artificial rivets to impress.  Any idea on the original cost?  

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, BWM said:

I'm not sure who built It, but there was a modern replica of a large grand union called Arundel which worked on the gravel run from Denham. A similar build would make an excellent base for the sort of project you have in mind. 

 

55 minutes ago, pete harrison said:

ARUNDEL was built by Stockton Dry Dock Company in 2003 

Jules Cook's "cabin" boat Lactodorum seems to me another good example of a modern build that is a fair representation of an old design.  Like "Arundel", I have also assumed it to be based on a "Large Northwich" "Town", (not surprising as Jules owns the unconverted "large Northwich" coal boat "Towcester".

Lactodorum appears to be a Dave Thomas build, if the boat listing is correct.

The only picture I could quickly turn up was this one.....