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Wood burning stoves to be banned in London


Señor Chris

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Whatever the current legislation, and political insults aside, anyone who thinks we will continue to be allowed to run old diesel engines in towns and cities and allowed to burn whatever we like in residential areas, clearly hasn’t been paying attention.

the most we can hope for is that CRT obtain some grant money to install electric hook ups.

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2 hours ago, Peter Thornton said:

Whatever the current legislation, and political insults aside, anyone who thinks we will continue to be allowed to run old diesel engines in towns and cities and allowed to burn whatever we like in residential areas, clearly hasn’t been paying attention.

Precisely. With car manufacturers already putting a time limit on how much longer they are going to produce cars without some form of electric propulsion, the writing is on the wall for petrol and diesel engines.

I still don't think people with no access to mains gas and electricity will be banned from using solid fuel for heating though.

 

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4 hours ago, Peter Thornton said:

I think Diesel engines for propulsion will be ok, it’s sitting on a mooring, in a residential area, running engines to charge batteries that will be the problem.

Yes I can imagine some politician or another deciding boat engines must be turned off in locks or whenever a boat is stationary too, soon, in line with this disconcerting thing where car engines autmatically stop when the car stops rolling, then starts again when the clutch is pressed to engage a gear. "Blue Motion" 

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes I can imagine some politician or another deciding boat engines must be turned off in locks or whenever a boat is stationary too, soon, in line with this disconcerting thing where car engines autmatically stop when the car stops rolling, then starts again when the clutch is pressed to engage a gear. "Blue Motion" 

Hasn't that been the rule on the Thames for some years already?

Our latest car has that stop-start feature. After a brief period of worrying that it had broken down, Mrs. Athy quickly got used to it. I wonder how such cars are perceived in France, where any more than a split-second's delay in pulling away when the lights turn green is commonly greeted by a fusillade of hornblowing from behind.

Edited by Athy
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2 hours ago, Athy said:

Hasn't that been the rule on the Thames for some years already?

Our latest car has that stop-start feature. After a brief period of worrying that it had broken down, Mrs. Athy quickly got used to it. I wonder how such cars are perceived in France, where any more than a split-second's delay in pulling away when the lights turn green is commonly greeted by a fusillade of hornblowing from behind.

If only they would do that with diesel trains. Got half choked at Manchester victoria by trains waiting to leave, maybe 10 mins with engine running for no reason, in what, in effect is a tunnel.

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13 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

If only they would do that with diesel trains. Got half choked at Manchester victoria by trains waiting to leave, maybe 10 mins with engine running for no reason, in what, in effect is a tunnel.

I have similar memories of Brum New Street many years ago - I think the main line trains were electric but the local ones were diesel, and that's a largely underground station too.

Is there any reason for stop-start technology not being put into trains?

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3 hours ago, Athy said:

Hasn't that been the rule on the Thames for some years already?

Our latest car has that stop-start feature. After a brief period of worrying that it had broken down, Mrs. Athy quickly got used to it. I wonder how such cars are perceived in France, where any more than a split-second's delay in pulling away when the lights turn green is commonly greeted by a fusillade of hornblowing from behind.

As has been noted, the potential banning of wood burners in London is a publicity grab by the Mayor, so no surprise there. Reducing the pollution from road traffic would be a much more achievable target to aim for and be much better for public health. 

Cars that stop and start all by themselves are becoming more common even in this peaceful backwater in La France Profonde, and no doubt they are wonderful. The nearest thing to a traffic jam or a queue at a traffic light around here is to be found in Limoges - where by the way, there are trolley buses - and on our most recent visit there we didn't witness any of that Parisian hornblowing. Life here is much more peaceful and slow, to the extent that when arriving at a country T junction it is normal to stop and let a car on the "main" road - main being a relative term - go past, even if said car was as much as 300 metres away when first seen. 

Wood burning stoves are the norm here, as heating by wood has been calculated as being about a quarter the cost per kilowatt hour of the cost of electric. After all, wood does grow on trees, whereas electricity doesn't.

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Full disclosure - I’m a local politician ........

Politicians don’t actually go about trying to upset people (!) most problems come because of opposing forces i.e. you have to upset someone, it’s just deciding which group to choose.

I can’t see a ban on running engines in locks for example. There are safety concerns apart from anything else.

The big issue will be running engines to charge batteries, in residential areas. This has already been a problem in the past and, crucially, it’s a problem capable of being solved. For example, our local council has recently banned genearators in the market place, but only after installing electric points as an alternative.

There are a number of high profile town centre moorings where I can see this being the way forward.

I just hope that CRT is engaging in some dialogue about this.

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4 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

As has been noted, the potential banning of wood burners in London is a publicity grab by the Mayor, so no surprise there. Reducing the pollution from road traffic would be a much more achievable target to aim for and be much better for public health. 

Cars that stop and start all by themselves are becoming more common even in this peaceful backwater in La France Profonde, and no doubt they are wonderful. The nearest thing to a traffic jam or a queue at a traffic light around here is to be found in Limoges - where by the way, there are trolley buses - and on our most recent visit there we didn't witness any of that Parisian hornblowing. Life here is much more peaceful and slow, to the extent that when arriving at a country T junction it is normal to stop and let a car on the "main" road - main being a relative term - go past, even if said car was as much as 300 metres away when first seen. 

Wood burning stoves are the norm here, as heating by wood has been calculated as being about a quarter the cost per kilowatt hour of the cost of electric. After all, wood does grow on trees, whereas electricity doesn't.

Sometimes a post makes me want to pack a bag and head straight for the airport (on the off-chance that any planes are flying today). Your mention of La France Profonde has exactly that effect.

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3 minutes ago, Athy said:

Sometimes a post makes me want to pack a bag and head straight for the airport (on the off-chance that any planes are flying today). Your mention of La France Profonde has exactly that effect.

Sometimes the profoundness of this part of France can be extreme. We live on the main square in a small market town, and on a Sunday afternoon everywhere is closed: when a car from out of town drives in and does a circuit of the fountain, clearly looking at the bar and the two restaurants and hoping for a drink or meal, we calculate that the nearest place open might be Limoges at 45 kms, but we wouldn't bet on it. 

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15 minutes ago, Peter Thornton said:

Full disclosure - I’m a local politician ........

Politicians don’t actually go about trying to upset people (!) most problems come because of opposing forces i.e. you have to upset someone, it’s just deciding which group to choose.

I can’t see a ban on running engines in locks for example. There are safety concerns apart from anything else.

The big issue will be running engines to charge batteries, in residential areas. This has already been a problem in the past and, crucially, it’s a problem capable of being solved. For example, our local council has recently banned genearators in the market place, but only after installing electric points as an alternative.

There are a number of high profile town centre moorings where I can see this being the way forward.

I just hope that CRT is engaging in some dialogue about this.

It is not that unusual I think at urban moorings close to residential properties, to have CRT signs saying that there should be no running of engines.  What I suspect though is that in reality CRT have no powers to actually enforce that, so it seems very sensible that in selected problem moorings there should be a ban which is properly enforceable.

The article referenced by the OP does not seem to be suggesting this though, it sounds more that the boats would need to meet emission standards, as would construction equipment.  That I can see being problematic for most narrowboats, particularly older ones.

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10 minutes ago, john6767 said:

It is not that unusual I think at urban moorings close to residential properties, to have CRT signs saying that there should be no running of engines.  What I suspect though is that in reality CRT have no powers to actually enforce that, so it seems very sensible that in selected problem moorings there should be a ban which is properly enforceable.

The article referenced by the OP does not seem to be suggesting this though, it sounds more that the boats would need to meet emission standards, as would construction equipment.  That I can see being problematic for most narrowboats, particularly older ones.

So, would  a Silenced LPG Generator answer those Requirements, might be a Gap in the Market?

CT

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6 minutes ago, john6767 said:

It is not that unusual I think at urban moorings close to residential properties, to have CRT signs saying that there should be no running of engines.  What I suspect though is that in reality CRT have no powers to actually enforce that, so it seems very sensible that in selected problem moorings there should be a ban which is properly enforceable.

The article referenced by the OP does not seem to be suggesting this though, it sounds more that the boats would need to meet emission standards, as would construction equipment.  That I can see being problematic for most narrowboats, particularly older ones.

I trust you don't mean moorings like Macclesfield, where a developer built brand new housing alongside visitor moorings that had been there for years.

The new householders then complained about those nasty boats.  BW/CRT in their usual supportive to boaters way, initially installed notices telling boaters not to run engines and then spent a six figure sum of boater's money moving the water point and installing new moorings further along the canal.

Sadly for CRT, new housing is now being built opposite the new moorings so I await the next round of appeasement with interest!

Regarding your second point, most legislation in this arena is not respective and would only be applied to new builds.

George

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4 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

I trust you don't mean moorings like Macclesfield, where a developer built brand new housing alongside visitor moorings that had been there for years.

The new householders then complained about those nasty boats.  BW/CRT in their usual supportive to boaters way, initially installed notices telling boaters not to run engines and then spent a six figure sum of boater's money moving the water point and installing new moorings further along the canal.

Sadly for CRT, new housing is now being built opposite the new moorings so I await the next round of appeasement with interest!

Regarding your second point, most legislation in this arena is not respective and would only be applied to new builds.

George

I was thinking off hand of Stratford-upon-Avon.  Not really commenting of the motive, just that the concept of having moorings where engines are not "allowed" to be run is not new.

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47 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Sometimes the profoundness of this part of France can be extreme. We live on the main square in a small market town, and on a Sunday afternoon everywhere is closed: when a car from out of town drives in and does a circuit of the fountain, clearly looking at the bar and the two restaurants and hoping for a drink or meal, we calculate that the nearest place open might be Limoges at 45 kms, but we wouldn't bet on it. 

Not unlike most of rural and small-town Britain 20 or so years ago, really. Gosh, how did we ever do without 24-hour shops and all-day licensing? We didn't actually plan ahead, did we?

What your out-of-towner will notice is the waft of cooking aromas, the clink of cutlery and the quiet hum of serious enjoyment emanating from the windows and terraces of houses. La France mange, as Mrs. Athy and I say about this scene. How very civilised.

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3 hours ago, furnessvale said:

I trust you don't mean moorings like Macclesfield, where a developer built brand new housing alongside visitor moorings that had been there for years.

The new householders then complained about those nasty boats.  BW/CRT in their usual supportive to boaters way, initially installed notices telling boaters not to run engines and then spent a six figure sum of boater's money moving the water point and installing new moorings further along the canal.

 

I seem to remember the notices asking for the nonrunning of engines have been there for years, and, to be honest, the moorings that were outside the pub were diabolical - you couldn't get within a couple of feet of the bank for the rocks, and the water point north of the bridge was almost unreachable.  The new pontoon moorings are a lot better, although admittedly the water point is a pain in the backside. but at least it's there and you can reach it.

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16 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I seem to remember the notices asking for the nonrunning of engines have been there for years, and, to be honest, the moorings that were outside the pub were diabolical - you couldn't get within a couple of feet of the bank for the rocks, and the water point north of the bridge was almost unreachable.  The new pontoon moorings are a lot better, although admittedly the water point is a pain in the backside. but at least it's there and you can reach it.

The notices have been there for several years which is why I used the term BW/CRT, but they only appeared AFTER the residents in the new build houses complained.  Whilst the moorings in question were not the best in the world, there is no way CRT would have spent gbp160,000 on new ones to benefit boaters had the new build householders not complained.  By the way, getting to within a couple of feet of  the bank, even on newly built moorings around the system, is quite a luxury for some of us!

The water point south of the bridge was perfectly good until one of said residents mounted a campaign against boaters and had it moved, at our expense, to the offside CRT yard where it is sometimes inaccessible due to moored workboats.

George

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5 hours ago, Jim Riley said:

If only they would do that with diesel trains. Got half choked at Manchester victoria by trains waiting to leave, maybe 10 mins with engine running for no reason, in what, in effect is a tunnel.

To some "clag" is wonderful. :ninja:

 

I suppose these will get banned as well, a rather large coal burner.

 

Edited by Ray T
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On 9/29/2017 at 12:54, DHutch said:

I was going to post this when I saw it last night.

I'm torn, on one level it sounds draconian and unenforceable, but on the flipside there is a surge in people fitting stoves and other fires to houses, many of which are cheap and poorly designed and I would not be at all surprised if they make a very real impact on localised air quality.

 

Daniel

Indeed. If I remember rightly (and, to be honest, no guarantees), the report I read said between 25 and 40 percent of particulate pollution was attributable to wood burning in some areas. 

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23 hours ago, blackrose said:

I don't have any data, but I'd have thought the greatest impact to the quality of air in the capital over the past 15 years or so has been the massive increase in the use of diesel vehicles, encouraged to reduce CO2 emissions from petrol cars - so we basically just swapped stratospheric pollution to ground level pollution (different pollutants of course).

Sometimes when I'm driving I see thick plumes of exhaust pouring out of the back of what appear to be relatively new private diesel cars and I can't help wondering how on earth these vehicles pass their MOT emissions tests? Does anyone know if limits to emitted particulate matter (PM10 & PM2.5) actually form part of the annual MOT tests for diesel vehicles? I suspect not...

 

Well, that's true that diesel is the main culprit, from what I've read. Unfortunately when it comes to particulate pollution, having a higher "base level" due to diesel fumes means that any extra from other source, including wood burning stoves, will push us even further the wrong way. The report I read the other day - assuming (and perhaps we shouldn't) I remember it right - said that wood burning accounts for a surprisingly high amount, too, in some parts of London. Upwards of 25% I think I read, and in some areas 40%. That's not to say that they are the main culprit, merely that their input may not be negligable.

DISCLAIMER: What I'm about to say is just what I heard, and how I remember it. I am more than ready to be corrected about any of this, and it should not be taken as gospel.

The diesel situation is a scandal. I'm too doubtful of pretty much everything to pin my colours to any particular political flag (although let's just say I never voted tory!)... but there's politics behind this, and it's an example of EU/economic liberalism approaches misfiring (which is not to say I am necessarily always against them, I certainly did not vote Leave). Apparently it is common knowledge in the motor industry and among motoring journalists that the VW emissions test hack is the tip of the iceberg, and that all the European car manufacturers were at it in some way or another. 

New, cleaner diesel engines were promised, and the governments incentivised their use, thinking it would be a boon to air quality. However, when it came to testing, it was decided  - and I think that this was at EU level, but again I'm not 100% - that it should be self-regulated, as opposed to having "heavy handed" or "interfering" assessments by some regulatory body or bodies. And then, surprise, surprise, they churned out thousands upon thousands of vehicles which manifestly failed to perform to the clean standard, as air quality got markedly worse over a period of a decade. People were aware of this, and the finger was pointed at Diesel vehicles, but it took some time before anyone could uncover any evidence. I think it was journalists working together who managed to uncover this - a situation that, so far as I know, was otherwise going unchallenged, as air quality continued (and continues) to worsen.

So incredibly stupid. You'd hope anyone from any particular political viewpoint would be able to see how getting the manufacturers to regularte themselves was an example of an idealogy becoming a dogma in a really thoughtless and self-evidently dangerous way. 

I have also heard that more on this will break over the next few years. But honestly, who the hell really knows.

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

`Would (wood) that be in Australia during a forest fire or, if you are referring to London in particular would that have been in September 1666 ?

Was that aimed at me? :) There's probably some way of telling but I'm not too slick with this site

Actually it's far worse than I thought. I've just found the link (bottom) to the BMJ report I had seen, which references a European Environment Agency report, conducted using WHO-approved methodology (according to the BMJ)... and I was underplaying it a LOT. Domestic wood burning stoves, according to this report, although low in numbers relative to vehicles, actually produce at least twice (!) as much PM 2.5 in the UK as vehicles do! Pretty cheap, IMO, to compare a stove's output to a petrol car's output, as they do in the link, instead of comparing it to a diesel vehicle. But still, a stove over a year* chucks out 1000 times more PM 2.5 than a (petrol) car...

I'm not sure how they calculate "over a year" (in terms of use, frequancy, etc), and how the WHO-approved methodology works (go look it up if you can be bothered, I'd be interested to know, but not enough to track it down!). But it seems to me even if they're out by 100%, that would still mean, according to this, that stoves are on a par with vehicles when it comes to pollution. And either way, unless they're literally completely clueless, it seems definitely to suggest that stoves' impact on particulate pollution is certainly not negligable by any means.

So, it seems pretty mind-boggling but wood burning stoves really seem to punch above their weight when it comes to PM 2.5 pullution. What's more, the UN has specifically targeted a reduction in their use in developing countries, in relation to climate change, too. Interesting, if depressing, reading. This is not to say I'm advocating any particular course of action, or justifying anything. Merely sharing stuff I've seen on what is an interesting topic:

http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2757/rr-1

 

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