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How things can go wrong


luggsy

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Five minutes from entering torksay lock ( going down ) this morning engine just died managed to get along side of narrow boat lifted engine hatch to see diesel in the engine bilge, what had happened was the fuel filter had spun off , got the filter back on and away we went into the lock , now if this would of happened 15 minutes later I would of just been turning left onto the Trent heading for Cromwell lock it would of been very frightening, although I have a anchor ( which I now know not to be the right kind it is a grapple which will be getting changed in the very near future ) I also had 2 56lb weights at the ready as well , a bit of a nervous cruise for the first hour to Cromwell lock , just shows how things can go wrong stay safe DONT go on a river without anchor life jacket & vhf 

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1 hour ago, mross said:

I'm glad you didn't have a fire.  The self-ignition temperature of diesel is only 200 C.  Petrol is much higher, at 400 C.  

It's much lower than that. It has a minimum flash point of 55°C according to the EN 590 specification. 

https://www.ipu.co.uk/en590/

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9 hours ago, luggsy said:

............although I have a anchor ( which I now know not to be the right kind it is a grapple which will be getting changed in the very near future ) I also had 2 56lb weights at the ready as well , a bit of a nervous cruise for the first hour to Cromwell lock , just shows how things can go wrong stay safe DONT go on a river without anchor life jacket & vhf 

I am glad you are ok and nothing serious happened.

 

I just wish that everyone planning on using a River could read your post.

Just as a matter of interest - what type and size of anchor do you now consider to 'the right kind' ? (serious question)

 

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37 minutes ago, cuthound said:

It's much lower than that. It has a minimum flash point of 55°C according to the EN 590 specification. 

https://www.ipu.co.uk/en590/

Yet, many years ago, I spent some time operating a diesel powered glider winch and the chequer plate under the seat was always swimming in diesel. Just like everyone else, I used to stub my ciggy out on the floor and the diesel would generally put the tab end out before I’d even stood on it. I doubt if H&S would approve these days ;)

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7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yet, many years ago, I spent some time operating a diesel powered glider winch and the chequer plate under the seat was always swimming in diesel. Just like everyone else, I used to stub my ciggy out on the floor and the diesel would generally put the tab end out before I’d even stood on it. I doubt if H&S would approve these days ;)

Indeed. I used to do the same.

One of my many roles when I worked for BT was to find solutions to impending environmental legislation. Whe  it was announced that the transportation  of diesel was coming under the Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road regulations because of its "low" flashpoint,  I realised that it would have an enormous impact on BT's mobile diesel generator operation. 

I sent samples of diesel of to various laboratories to ascertain the flash point. It varies but the lowest was around 80°C, usually higher.

I tried to argue with the legislation

tors, but they had a statement from a refinery saying 55°C was the lowest it could theroetically be, so we had no option but to hire a DGSA and comply.

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I was involved in a very similar incident a few years ago that could have turned out a lot worse than it did. A chap was heading through Gainsborough on an ebbing tide when his engine died. He dropped the anchor, this eventually bit and he ended up in the willows a fair way downstream. Not being mechanically minded he didn't even lift the boards to check anything. 

The firebrigade helped him off, and he was left watching from the far bank as the tide went out leaving his pride and joy (also his home) at an alarming angle in the mud. A mutual friend had given him my number as he knew I mooored at West Stockwith, so I went out next tide hoping that it had refloated and not stuck in the mud. Luckily it was ok, and after towing it back to safety a quick check revealed nothing more than a loose spin on fuel filter.

Interestingly his anchor, which I managed to recover, was a heavy Danforth type but very bent and mangled. I thought I'd got some lovely new ropes for my troubles but the fire brigade had asked for them back!

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6 minutes ago, luggsy said:

Alan thinking of getting a 24kg plow would this be ok ? Also I have now marked the fule filter so I can keep a eye on it 

Yes - good choice.

20Kg is probably enough but 24kg is better (if you can lift it)

Remember to have (ideally) 5x depth of chain, or 7x depth of chain / rope if 50/50 of each.

Obviously depth varies (particularly on the tidal part) but say 50 feet of 8mm chain (10mm would be better) would do the job.

 

Thanks for posting - It is a good job that your 'incident' didn't happen top-side of Cromwell lock, or you may not have been able to report it.

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7 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Out of interest, had the worst happened how would calling mayday on the vhf compare with dialling 999 on the mobile?

Anyone else with a VHF scanning channel 16 would hear the mayday and might be able to offer help.

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1 hour ago, cuthound said:

It's much lower than that. It has a minimum flash point of 55°C according to the EN 590 specification. 

You confuse flashpoint with self-ignition temperature.  A fuel leak over a hot exhaust can self ignite without a spark.  Petrol won't self ignite because exhaust temps don't get that high except on race engines. 

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3 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Out of interest, had the worst happened how would calling mayday on the vhf compare with dialling 999 on the mobile?

Dialling 999 will alert the Police / Fire Brigade who would probably have to come from Lincoln ( a good half hour away) and would probably not be in a position, or have the equipment to help a boat in the middle of the 'river'.

Calling the Lock-Keeper on Channel 74 (who is only a couple of 100 yards away) who could take whatever action deemed necessary, - it would also alert every other 'equipped' boat in the vicinity who could render immediate assistance, either to tow to the side, or help evacuate the occupants, or even provide fire extinguishers.

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The fuel filter on my Lister SR2 fell off a couple of years ago. I put it back but it fell off again a couple of days later as the thread at the top that holds the thing on had failed - apparently a normal occurrence according to the engineer who put a new one on (although it was the first time it had happened to me in nearly 30 years!).  So possibly the OP should be aware that just replacing the filter might only be a temp fix - it might become more of a problem.

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1 hour ago, mross said:

You confuse flashpoint with self-ignition temperature.  A fuel leak over a hot exhaust can self ignite without a spark.  Petrol won't self ignite because exhaust temps don't get that high except on race engines. 

Thanks,  every day is a school day. 

Flash point is usually used in assessing risk, presumably because although at the flash point the flammable liquid may not be capable of a self sustaining fire, it can set other materials alight.

 

Edited by cuthound
Edited to remove duplicate post.
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47 minutes ago, cuthound said:

presumably because although at the flash point the flammable liquid may not be capable of a self sustaining fire, it can set other materials alight.

Not really.  If you heat an open container of oil to its flashpoint and apply a spark it will light and stay lit as the liquid is giving off flammable gases.  Just below the flashpoint there will be a flash but the flame goes out.  I would not ignore SIT when assessing risk.  Most fires on ship's engines are ignited by hot surfaces, not sparks.

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18 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

A good reminder to also check on you engine on a regular basis.

I'd say so. How does a fuel filter spin off? I mean isn't that taking "hand tight" rather too literally? I guess we all have different grip strengths. I spin mine on as tight as possible by hand and then use a strap wrench to get another half or full turn. They'll never spin off by themselves.

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3 hours ago, blackrose said:

I'd say so. How does a fuel filter spin off? I mean isn't that taking "hand tight" rather too literally? I guess we all have different grip strengths. I spin mine on as tight as possible by hand and then use a strap wrench to get another half or full turn. They'll never spin off by themselves.

I thought the rule was to spin it on until the seal touches the face of the filter head, then add another half to three quarters turn, whether by hand or, if too weak to do that, with a wrench.

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15 minutes ago, mross said:

It's important to smear the seal with oil as this helps to achieve tightness.  The instructions are often on the carton, :giggles:

My first thought on this - did the OP do it.

A comment on Arthur's input and possibly the OP's problem. There are spin on filters with very similar threads/spigot sizes that are not exact matches. I wonder if one got fitted by mistake. At lest using a wrench to do a final tighten would usually show this but I can not condone over-tightening because someone will have to get it off again.

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23 hours ago, noddyboater said:

I was involved in a very similar incident a few years ago that could have turned out a lot worse than it did. A chap was heading through Gainsborough on an ebbing tide when his engine died. He dropped the anchor, this eventually bit and he ended up in the willows a fair way downstream. Not being mechanically minded he didn't even lift the boards to check anything. 

The firebrigade helped him off, and he was left watching from the far bank as the tide went out leaving his pride and joy (also his home) at an alarming angle in the mud. A mutual friend had given him my number as he knew I mooored at West Stockwith, so I went out next tide hoping that it had refloated and not stuck in the mud. Luckily it was ok, and after towing it back to safety a quick check revealed nothing more than a loose spin on fuel filter.

Interestingly his anchor, which I managed to recover, was a heavy Danforth type but very bent and mangled. I thought I'd got some lovely new ropes for my troubles but the fire brigade had asked for them back!

You did well there young man, a full blown rescue and getting the boat into West Stockwith. Tricky enough with one boat.

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