Buying a new boat

[Naughty Cal]

14 hours ago, LadyG said:

that is why I said "for their purposes", if no one wants to hire it, it is not worth their while keeping for another season. Its like cars that are insurance write offs, they often can be recovered if someone knows what they are doing and have the resources.

.. and the English Law will assist the purchaser , this is not the case with a private sale. I would not want to buy it, as I want a long term home with minimal maintenance, a bit of style, and no roughing it, but then I will not buy that for £12K. For a young couple I would think if they are going to make a go of living on the cut, they will need to apply some practical skills and plenty of positive attitude, if they won't do this,  I am afraid they willl be sadly disillusioned.

My OH is a panel beater. He will not entertain insurance write offs.

They are written off for a reason and are very rarely economical to repair even by people in the trade.

They get a fair number of cars to repair that have been bought as write offs each year and the end bill makes the cars not worth the effort of fixing them. They more often then not end up spending the same as buying a straight car in the first instance. But you can't tell some people this and they often get the same folks back making the same mistake time after time.

[LadyG]

Just now, Naughty Cal said:

My OH is a panel beater. He will not entertain insurance write offs.

They are written off for a reason and are very rarely economical to repair even by people in the trade.

They get a fair number of cars to repair that have been bought as write offs each year and the end bill makes the cars not worth the effort of fixing them. They more often then not end up spending the same as buying a straight car in the first instance. But you can't tell some people this and they often get the same folks back making the same mistake time after time.

ie people who don't know what they are buying and don't have the resources to repair.

[cuthound]

This article clearly defines what the insurance "write off" categories mean and how rhey are changing from next month.

Category D vehicles  are beyond economic repair for the insurance company, but not dangerous, so can be good value for someone capable of repairing them himself.

https://www.whatcar.com/advice/buying/cat-d-need-know/

[WotEver]

I know two businesses who both make a good living from repairing Cat C and Cat D write-offs, so it most certainly can be done if you know what you’re doing and have the resources. It’s not their main revenue stream but they still do one or two a year. 

[Mike Hurley]

14 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I know two businesses who both make a good living from repairing Cat C and Cat D write-offs, so it most certainly can be done if you know what you’re doing and have the resources. It’s not their main revenue stream but they still do one or two a year. 

I used to do it myself, good money to be had if you know what you are doing.

[Naughty Cal]

3 hours ago, Mike Hurley said:

I used to do it myself, good money to be had if you know what you are doing.

Once upon a time maybe. We have done a few in the past and made good money from them. MK3 Fiestas were a favourite.

But with the price of car parts now and the technology in cars it is becoming not worth the hassle.

4 hours ago, cuthound said:

This article clearly defines what the insurance "write off" categories mean and how rhey are changing from next month.

Category D vehicles  are beyond economic repair for the insurance company, but not dangerous, so can be good value for someone capable of repairing them himself.

https://www.whatcar.com/advice/buying/cat-d-need-know/

Therein lies another problem.

Car manufacturers have cottoned on to people working on their own cars and start using fastenings which your average man in the street just won't have the tools to work on.

[alan_fincher]

On 9/27/2017 at 13:13, ditchcrawler said:

I bet its been out and blacked every year and never connected to a shore supply and never been moored in a marina so it may, note may, still be sound.

Probably the reason is being sold is that hires expect bells and whistles today, not basic boats

But the advert actually says.....

Quote

The steel hull has been surveyed and replating of the bottom is recommended at some time in the future.

 

Wyvern are being quite honest about the boat, but with a 1975 build date it is a 42 year old hire boat, somehing I doubt many other hire boat firms can match!

Another thing to consider is

Quote

This boat is ideal for extensive summer cruising.

It's heating options are probably limited, and I'm not sure how much insulation the top will have been built with.

Yes, they keep their boats remarkably well, and for a wooden top this is a very smart boat, but for a 40 foot wooden top, needing an overplate, by their own admission, the price seems far too high to me.

 

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Once upon a time maybe. We have done a few in the past and made good money from them. MK3 Fiestas were a favourite.

One of the companies I know reinstates BMWs & Minis, the other, Jags. They both make good money from them, but then they do know what they’re doing, as Mike pointed out. 

[alan_fincher]

On 9/27/2017 at 13:32, Naughty Cal said:

Not always.

Most hire fleets will sell of their more unpopular craft at some stage to replace them with more popular models and layouts.

Being almost the end of the hiring season now is the time that a lot go for sale. Loads on the Broads at the moment, just none like the one that we want 

There is actually no secret that Wyvern stopped building any new boats some time ago, and the owners of this family run business, (since the 1960s), have no intention of building any new boats for this fleet.

Because, I guess most boats in the fleet have already paid for themselves many times over, (and probably few of them more so than Primrose!), they are already at the stage where the only costs are maintaining, insuring and licensing them, meaning that Wyvern is probably less hit than many operators when a bad season means that a large amount of the fleet stands around at the yard for much of the time.  Once they identify the need to over-plate one of their boats that probably provides the lowest income though, it is not hard to see with a declining market why they might choose not to.

Personally I think the move from the point where people were happy that a 4 berth hire boat was 40 feet long, to the point people now expect it to be over 60 feet long, is a great shame, and it seems to me that it is this upping of expectations that has also massively increased the cost of a hiring, which in turn results in less and less people finding it an attractive option.

I'm not sure how many places you can still go to to find a hire narrow boat of 45 feet or less, but my gut feeling is the number available remains in constant decline.

[ditchcrawler]

43 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

But the advert actually says.....

Wyvern are being quite honest about the boat, but with a 1975 build date it is a 42 year old hire boat, somehing I doubt many other hire boat firms can match!

Another thing to consider is

It's heating options are probably limited, and I'm not sure how much insulation the top will have been built with.

Yes, they keep their boats remarkably well, and for a wooden top this is a very smart boat, but for a 40 foot wooden top, needing an overplate, by their own admission, the price seems far too high to me.

 

Also remember if buying it you are buying from a company so if they tell porkies you have a come back under the sale of goods act. But yes its an old boat at an old boat price.

[Athy]

47 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

.

Personally I think the move from the point where people were happy that a 4 berth hire boat was 40 feet long, to the point people now expect it to be over 60 feet long, is a great shame, and it seems to me that it is this upping of expectations that has also massively increased the cost of a hiring, which in turn results in less and less people finding it an attractive option.

 

Yes, absolutely - in our hiring days in the '90s we hired a 42 (I think) footer from Wyvern, a 36-footer from the company at Aldermaston (forgotten their name) and a 41-footer from Fox's.

EDIT: Union Canal Carriers have six boats of 45 feet or less - several of which have nice little Sabb engines.

A very swift look on the internet shows that Ashby have two short-break boats shorter than 45 feet, Fox's have one 45-footer and Wyvern have a whole gaggle of 40-46 footers, but these, as you point out, are old boats which will not be replaced. I haven't checked any other firms, but whatever Canaltime are called these days probably still have 45-footers, they used to have them in droves. As well as the cost element, I should think that a 60-footer must be quite intimidating for many less experienced hirers.

Edited September 28, 2017 by Athy

[alan_fincher]

25 minutes ago, Athy said:

 As well as the cost element, I should think that a 60-footer must be quite intimidating for many less experienced hirers.

And once a stag party on board has made its first few pub stops, quite intimidating for those coming the other way as well!

[Athy]

2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

And once a stag party on board has made its first few pub stops, quite intimidating for those coming the other way as well!

...which brings us back to CanalTime...

[SadieF]

On 9/26/2017 at 16:24, alan_fincher said:

I assume it's this boat?

I don't think anything purchased from Virginia Currer is ever particularly cheap - as has been said, it is servicing the London live-aboard market, where prices are inflated.  The fact they can offer a potential berth at Iver seems to be another basis for pricing high.

How can you sell a boat that on the one hand claims as a selling point a relatively recent engine service, but on the other acknowledges that the engine currently has unresolved problems?  A serviced engine that has problems is no better than an unserviced engine that has problems, surely?   Highly bizarre.  Overheated engines can have all sorts of problems, such as failed head gaskets, cracks in the head, or worse.  If it is claimed to be repaired before sale, how confident could you be that it would be trouble free from thereon?  Unless given an actually guarantee, I would say not at all certain.

Whilst there are a number about, the Perkins 4108 doesn't seem to be anything like as well regarded in narrow boats as the BMC 1500 and 1800 engines.  You need to investigate Perkins repair costs before thinking of getting involved.  EDIT:  I missed Tony Brooks' post on this - nobody will know better than Tony - if he expresses some doubts about these engines in marinised form, his words are worth heeding!

Yes it's that boat. It did seem worrying that they didn't mention the engine issue on the ad. i saw them in person before the ad was even put up, just as the previous owner had left the yard. I think this one is certainly a no from me. 

Wondering what opinions are on BUKH engines. i've had a reply from someone with a boat alot closer to me. 

[alan_fincher]

33 minutes ago, SadieF said:

Wondering what opinions are on BUKH engines. i've had a reply from someone with a boat alot closer to me. 

Opinions on the Bukh engines seem to be almost universally positive.

Engines genuinely built for marine use, rather than (as the majority are), built primarily for automotive, agricultural or industrial use.

Not that the latter means there is anything wrong with a non marine base engine that has been professionally marinised, but Bukhs seem to be a reliable work horse, very well thought of.

[MtB]

7 hours ago, SadieF said:

 

Wondering what opinions are on BUKH engines. i've had a reply from someone with a boat alot closer to me. 

 

Bukh engines are widely regarded as very good engines but some of them are rather small for narrowboats.

They are also rather old fashioned, agricultural and (probably) noisy compared to a modern brand new Isuzu or similar, and don't come with modern features often expected like big/twin alternators. 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Bukh engines are widely regarded as very good engines but some of them are rather small for narrowboats.

They are also rather old fashioned, agricultural and (probably) noisy compared to a modern brand new Isuzu or similar, and don't come with modern features often expected like big/twin alternators. 

By and large not noisy because they are so heavily made and are water cooled. Just get a decent silencer. They have large flywheels so tend to be smoother then similarly powered marinised engines. The DV36 even has internal balance weights in addition to the ones on the crank webs to further reduce vibrations.

Your right about twin alternators and as we have been discussing in another topic its hard to get the smaller ones in particular to feed a calorifier.

Otherwise arguably the best marine engines in their size.

[SadieF]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

By and large not noisy because they are so heavily made and are water cooled. Just get a decent silencer. They have large flywheels so tend to be smoother then similarly powered marinised engines. The DV36 even has internal balance weights in addition to the ones on the crank webs to further reduce vibrations.

Your right about twin alternators and as we have been discussing in another topic its hard to get the smaller ones in particular to feed a calorifier.

Otherwise arguably the best marine engines in their size.

It's a 45ft, got gas hot water system, 1978 boat, looks like a Hancock and lane according to my friend (but owner doesn't know! Seems odd). Needs sprucing up inside somewhat, but functional, with burner, survey done this year and had all recommended work done 2 months ago (none below water line), plus new annodes, blacked. Its been empty 4 months and has a smashed window that needs replacing. Needs electrics sorting out too.

Is this a stolen boat? Haha. I'm so cynical now! Does it seem wierd to you that the guy doesn't know the make of the boat but also said he's had a survey (I've. Asked him to send me survey) Also what's your views on overplating? I've been told best to steer clear unless I know for certain the welder has done a good job. 

Edited September 30, 2017 by SadieF

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, SadieF said:

It's a 45ft, got gas hot water system, What sort ? does it heat the radiators ? Is it an Alde system or an instantaneous type ?

1978 boat, looks like a Hancock and lane according to my friend (but owner doesn't know! Seems odd). Needs sprucing up inside somewhat, but functional, with burner, survey done this year and had all recommended work done 2 months ago Receipts or other proof the work has been done ? (none below water line),

plus new annodes, blacked. Its been empty 4 months and has a smashed window that needs replacing. Needs electrics sorting out too. Needs sorting ? - is that a new fuse (50p) or a complete rewire (£1000s). It is not easy to rewire a boat once it is 'fitted out'.

Is this a stolen boat? Haha. I'm so cynical now! Does it seem wierd to you that the guy doesn't know the make of the boat but also said he's had a survey (I've. Asked him to send me survey) Also what's your views on overplating? I've been told best to steer clear unless I know for certain the welder has done a good job. My views exactly - if you absolutely must buy a 'bottom end of the market boat' buy one that needs overplating then you have control over who does it and how its done.

It needs to be very, very cheap.

My feelings / thoughts - others may vary.

[SadieF]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It needs to be very, very cheap.

My feelings / thoughts - others may vary.

It's a Coles Morton. Electrics, needs solar panels fitting/ inverter. Only 1 leisure/1 starter at mo. Don't know about the wiring. So new battery banks I imagine. So needs quite a lot doing, with window, cosmetic bits, plus uncertainty on plating work. He's asking 18k or offers. A bit much perhaps

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, SadieF said:

It's a Coles Morton. Electrics, needs solar panels fitting/ inverter. Only 1 leisure/1 starter at mo. Don't know about the wiring. So new battery banks I imagine. So needs quite a lot doing, with window, cosmetic bits, plus uncertainty on plating work. He's asking 18k or offers. A bit much perhaps

Difficult to comment further without viewing the boat but I would not be going to look at it at that price - £10k sounds nearer the mark

a 40 year old boat that potentially needs £1000s spending on it (£5k for plating) and will probably be worth a max of £18k when everything is done

[blackrose]

On 25/09/2017 at 14:47, chubby said:

Ive never been on the K & A . Chances are i never will . It doesn t sound overly worthwhile . My opinion only . 

It's very worthwhile - my opinion only, but it's likely to be a more valid opinion than yours since I've actually done the entire length.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It needs to be very, very cheap.

My feelings / thoughts - others may vary.

Agree. At this age and with unverified  history I'd say £5k would be a good price for the gamble. 

[MtB]

And yes, probably worth about £15-£18k once all the work has been done and a good survey received. 

[peterboat]

On 9/27/2017 at 16:27, chubby said:

My personal thoughts on this boat are that Ditchcrawler has nailed it with the comments quoted . 

I expect that hirers nowadays want all sorts of gizmos , kitchen nonsense like " nespresso " machines & USB charging points & tellys etc . 

I expect hire boats are blacked every year ? This boat is a relic from another era when folk wanted to get away from it all , cruise the waterways , and have a simple time - less is more if you like .

Nowadays folk seem unable to go half a day without getting on tinternet or using a mobile fone , ipad etc and the boat is possibly outdated . 

If the hull has been maintained and the wooden cabin too then for someone who just wants to get on the water with minimal cost and who doesn t need much " stuff " then it has the potential to be a good result for someone maybe . That someone may have to spend a few quid on a few things ....or more than a few things - but for a " hands on " type person at 12k it could be worthwhile . Rock up  in Leighton Buzzard with 9 or 10 K and youd probably get it . 

Compared to alot of the complete crap that turns up on ebay at much more money it looks ok .

I also like that it appears to be " honest " . Its old , its had a hard life , its got a wooden cabin , its very basic . No " sprucing up " to add a bit to the asking price etc . 

I dunno whether its any good or not in the flesh & the term Caveat Emptor  would be highly relevant - but for someone it could be a Bobby Dazzler 

cheers

My ex hire boat had never been blacked!! Never assume like I did check with your eyes