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I assume it's this boat?

I don't think anything purchased from Virginia Currer is ever particularly cheap - as has been said, it is servicing the London live-aboard market, where prices are inflated.  The fact they can offer a potential berth at Iver seems to be another basis for pricing high.

How can you sell a boat that on the one hand claims as a selling point a relatively recent engine service, but on the other acknowledges that the engine currently has unresolved problems?  A serviced engine that has problems is no better than an unserviced engine that has problems, surely?   Highly bizarre.  Overheated engines can have all sorts of problems, such as failed head gaskets, cracks in the head, or worse.  If it is claimed to be repaired before sale, how confident could you be that it would be trouble free from thereon?  Unless given an actually guarantee, I would say not at all certain.

Whilst there are a number about, the Perkins 4108 doesn't seem to be anything like as well regarded in narrow boats as the BMC 1500 and 1800 engines.  You need to investigate Perkins repair costs before thinking of getting involved.  EDIT:  I missed Tony Brooks' post on this - nobody will know better than Tony - if he expresses some doubts about these engines in marinised form, his words are worth heeding!

Edited by alan_fincher
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24 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I assume it's this boat?
  EDIT:  I missed Tony Brooks' post on this - nobody will know better than Tony - if he expresses some doubts about these engines in marinised form, his words are worth heeding!

Yeh, but then I like BMCs :lol:

 

 

But not as much as my Bukh

 

 

Quote of the century from VC staff (when she was alive) when I was looking at boats for myself.  Accommodation bilge so full the carpet in the back cabin was squelching so I advised them they might do well to pump it out before another punter looked at it - reply " its only condensation". Not a broker who's words I would  happily trust.

I also poked some suspicious newish paintwork on another boat with a pocket screwdriver and a great chunk of rust fell off - comment "you should not do that its the surveyors job".

Yet another when helping friends look for a boat. Found one there that ticked all the boxes but had a Hurth gearbox. We were given the keys so I checked oil and water, started the boat and tried it in and out of gear a few times. Sure enough the box slipped. When I conveyed this to the VC staff I was told I was totally wrong to start it because I could damage the engine.

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13 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

13 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Once the steel is down to 4mm surveyors tend to condemn the boat which to me seems plain stupid. Boats used to be built in the first place from steel thinner than that! A boat with 3mm on steel left after 25 years will probably survive another 25 years before it actually corrodes through even without any overplating. Such boats represent remarkable bargains these days in my opinion. 

Very true. But once a boat is over 25-30 years old most insurers want an out-of-water survey before you can get comprehensive insurance. Otherwise you have to go with third party cover only. That might be fine for a leisure boat, but if this is your home you may be less happy that the boat and contents are not covered.

Edited by David Mack
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On 26/09/2017 at 23:40, David Mack said:

Very true. But once a boat is over 25-30 years old most insurers want an out-of-water survey before you can get comprehensive insurance. Otherwise you have to go with third party cover only. That might be fine for a leisure boat, but if this is your home you may be less happy that the boat and contents are not covered.

Very true. But once a boat is over 25-30 years old most insurers want an out-of-water survey before you can get comprehensive insurance. Otherwise you have to go with third party cover only. That might be fine for a leisure boat, but if this is your home you may be less happy that the boat and contents are not covered.

 

Definitely the old git perspective kicking in here. When I was 22 insurance was just a tax I had to pay. Third party was fine as it allowed me to get on with boating. Stopping it sinking was my business, no-one elses. 

Come to think about it, this is still my attitude.

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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

Wondered what was wrong with it, then I saw the dread words " wooden cabin top". 1975 boat, you'd want to take a long hard look, preferably with Tony's little screwdriver, at where the top joins the gunwale.

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2 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Wondered what was wrong with it, then I saw the dread words " wooden cabin top". 1975 boat, you'd want to take a long hard look, preferably with Tony's little screwdriver, at where the top joins the gunwale.

To be fair,  Wyvern take a lot of care of their fleet and the upper cabin will probably be sound. 

It's the 42 year old hull that has been bashed for 10 months every year that I would be concerned about.

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Also, it does not have a fixed double bed, and there's a mention that some replating may be required, perhaps soon.

But it does look well cared for. I've always liked Wyvern's boats, especially the rear deck layout, which I wonder why more people don't copy.

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Overplating will be about 7-8K, no solid fuel stove, another 1K, interior changes to make a proper bedroom, ???? pounds, you then have doubled the purchase price. Nice looker though with a good looking engine. If the top is good then it could be worth the money and the investment to have a sound boat.

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1 hour ago, matty40s said:

To be fair,  Wyvern take a lot of care of their fleet and the upper cabin will probably be sound. 

It's the 42 year old hull that has been bashed for 10 months every year that I would be concerned about.

As this is a business sale, and Wyvern appears to be respected, you can assume that it was beyond economic repair for their purposes, they must therefore have detailed knowledge of the boat, just ask them.

Its the end of the season, culling of charter fleets is to be expected, what also expected is reliable engine, loo, and shower, its always going to be a project at the price. If they are only moving every 14 days, the sleeping cabin can be left intact.

Edited by LadyG
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22 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

This is very wise advice. Most newbies look for that fictitious boat, a 'doer-upper' with a good engine and hull and just a tired interior. No such boat exists obviously, as any boat with a good engine and hull will only have those due to being well looked after. So why would a caring long term owner then fail to keep the interior smart and nice?

Funny - I think it's equally obvious that such boats do exist. (I bought one as my first boat, and viewed another just recently.) A 'caring long term owner' with the right priorities might very well budget a few hundred pounds a year for routine hull blacking and engine servicing, yet lack the skills, budget or motivation to replace ageing kitchen units, flooring, upholstery or whatever. 

Having said that, I'd caution anyone against assuming that these more cosmetic issues with the fit-out are relatively cheap, quick and easy to sort out.

Edited by magictime
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7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

As this is a business sale, and Wyvern appears to be respected, you can assume that it was beyond economic repair for their purposes,

Not necessarily: they may simply have bought or built a new boat to replace it, or their hiring business may have shrunk to the point where they have too many boats in their fleet.

Some hire firms regularly sell their boats after only five years or so, and it is unlikely that those will be beyond economic repair.

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14 minutes ago, Athy said:

Not necessarily: they may simply have bought or built a new boat to replace it, or their hiring business may have shrunk to the point where they have too many boats in their fleet.

Some hire firms regularly sell their boats after only five years or so, and it is unlikely that those will be beyond economic repair.

Not many boats in this [£12K] price range which are proven, current,  hire boats, most ex hire I have seen are priced at 2, 3 or four times this. http://www.abcboatsales.com/boat-sales/little-weaver/ £45K

We should assume that they are sellling off the worse boats and keeping the best, that would seem to be sensible business practice. 

#PS Do the big containers on the cruiser deck hold large gas containers?

Edited by LadyG
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11 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Not many boats in this [£12K] price range which are proven, current,  hire boats, most ex hire I have seen are priced at 2, 3 or four times this. http://www.abcboatsales.com/boat-sales/little-weaver/ £45K

We should assume that they are sellling off the worse boats and keeping the best, that would seem to be sensible business practice. 

#PS Do the big containers on the cruiser deck hold large gas containers?

One does, yes - two standard 13kg bottles. The other has mooring pins & c. This is from distant memory: we hired our first U.K. canal boat from Wyvern in, I think, 1995 and it was just like this one (it may even have BEEN this one).

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I've said this before, but IMHO these early leisure narrowboats - this one is 42 years old! - are just as much a part of waterways history as the old working boats we all recognise as 'historic'. They belong to an era when the canals and the boats on them were being reinvented, and it was still up for grabs what a leisure boat should look like, or be made of. Today's bargain-basement 'project' boat - tomorrow's museum piece?

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I'm no expert (!) on wooden tops but looking at my property, once water gets in it can be a major job to cut out the rot and  'make good'. Its the joins between the repair and the existing that can be a problem.

For a boater it's finding anyone who can fix it - and near to where you are. Most of the joins are where the water can get in - sides of the roof and worse, where the top meets the hull. OK for Wyvern as they have the knowledge, work area and staff who can fix things.

What chance does a liveaboard have with minimal experience, tools and working location??

 

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5 hours ago, Mike Hurley said:

Overplating will be about 7-8K, no solid fuel stove, another 1K, interior changes to make a proper bedroom, ???? pounds, you then have doubled the purchase price. Nice looker though with a good looking engine. If the top is good then it could be worth the money and the investment to have a sound boat.

I bet its been out and blacked every year and never connected to a shore supply and never been moored in a marina so it may, note may, still be sound.

4 hours ago, LadyG said:

 

We should assume that they are sellling off the worse boats and keeping the best, that would seem to be sensible business practice. 

 

Probably the reason is being sold is that hires expect bells and whistles today, not basic boats

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1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

I'm no expert (!) on wooden tops but looking at my property, once water gets in it can be a major job to cut out the rot and  'make good'. Its the joins between the repair and the existing that can be a problem.

For a boater it's finding anyone who can fix it - and near to where you are. Most of the joins are where the water can get in - sides of the roof and worse, where the top meets the hull. OK for Wyvern as they have the knowledge, work area and staff who can fix things.

What chance does a liveaboard have with minimal experience, tools and working location??

 

Ask Wyvern to make watertight if that is the problem, pay them to bring boat up to your spec, at this time of year they should have the time to do the work. i don't really think OP is going to get anything other than a project at this price.

If the boat needs overplating and waterproofing and this is more than OP can spend, then no sane person  will buy it at the price offered.. 

Edited by LadyG
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4 hours ago, LadyG said:

As this is a business sale, and Wyvern appears to be respected, you can assume that it was beyond economic repair for their purposes, they must therefore have detailed knowledge of the boat, just ask them.

Its the end of the season, culling of charter fleets is to be expected, what also expected is reliable engine, loo, and shower, its always going to be a project at the price. If they are only moving every 14 days, the sleeping cabin can be left intact.

Not always.

Most hire fleets will sell of their more unpopular craft at some stage to replace them with more popular models and layouts.

Being almost the end of the hiring season now is the time that a lot go for sale. Loads on the Broads at the moment, just none like the one that we want :rolleyes:

A few examples of yards selling off here:

https://www.watersidemarinesales.co.uk/boats-for-sale/

http://www.richardsonsboatsales.net/

http://www.norfolkboatsales.co.uk/

None of them are beyond economic repair. They are just not popular in the hire fleets anymore and will no doubt serve private boat owners for many more decades to come.

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3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

I bet its been out and blacked every year and never connected to a shore supply and never been moored in a marina so it may, note may, still be sound.

Probably the reason is being sold is that hires expect bells and whistles today, not basic boats

My personal thoughts on this boat are that Ditchcrawler has nailed it with the comments quoted . 

I expect that hirers nowadays want all sorts of gizmos , kitchen nonsense like " nespresso " machines & USB charging points & tellys etc . 

I expect hire boats are blacked every year ? This boat is a relic from another era when folk wanted to get away from it all , cruise the waterways , and have a simple time - less is more if you like .

Nowadays folk seem unable to go half a day without getting on tinternet or using a mobile fone , ipad etc and the boat is possibly outdated . 

If the hull has been maintained and the wooden cabin too then for someone who just wants to get on the water with minimal cost and who doesn t need much " stuff " then it has the potential to be a good result for someone maybe . That someone may have to spend a few quid on a few things ....or more than a few things - but for a " hands on " type person at 12k it could be worthwhile . Rock up  in Leighton Buzzard with 9 or 10 K and youd probably get it . 

Compared to alot of the complete crap that turns up on ebay at much more money it looks ok .

I also like that it appears to be " honest " . Its old , its had a hard life , its got a wooden cabin , its very basic . No " sprucing up " to add a bit to the asking price etc . 

I dunno whether its any good or not in the flesh & the term Caveat Emptor  would be highly relevant - but for someone it could be a Bobby Dazzler 

cheers

Edited by chubby
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49 minutes ago, chubby said:

My personal thoughts on this boat are that Ditchcrawler has nailed it with the comments quoted . 

I expect that hirers nowadays want all sorts of gizmos , kitchen nonsense like " nespresso " machines & USB charging points & tellys etc . 

I expect hire boats are blacked every year ? This boat is a relic from another era when folk wanted to get away from it all , cruise the waterways , and have a simple time - less is more if you like .

Nowadays folk seem unable to go half a day without getting on tinternet or using a mobile fone , ipad etc and the boat is possibly outdated . 

If the hull has been maintained and the wooden cabin too then for someone who just wants to get on the water with minimal cost and who doesn t need much " stuff " then it has the potential to be a good result for someone maybe . That someone may have to spend a few quid on a few things ....or more than a few things - but for a " hands on " type person at 12k it could be worthwhile . Rock up  in Leighton Buzzard with 9 or 10 K and youd probably get it . 

Compared to alot of the complete crap that turns up on ebay at much more money it looks ok .

I also like that it appears to be " honest " . Its old , its had a hard life , its got a wooden cabin , its very basic . No " sprucing up " to add a bit to the asking price etc . 

I dunno whether its any good or not in the flesh & the term Caveat Emptor  would be highly relevant - but for someone it could be a Bobby Dazzler 

cheers

Also remember it is costing as much to service this boat for letting as it does a new one, so they can't rent it out much cheaper than the others. The only difference is the capital cost of the new boat and that will be spread over several years as well as a tax rightoff.

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1 hour ago, chubby said:

My personal thoughts on this boat are that Ditchcrawler has nailed it with the comments quoted . 

I expect that hirers nowadays want all sorts of gizmos , kitchen nonsense like " nespresso " machines & USB charging points & tellys etc . 

I expect hire boats are blacked every year ? This boat is a relic from another era when folk wanted to get away from it all , cruise the waterways , and have a simple time - less is more if you like .

Nowadays folk seem unable to go half a day without getting on tinternet or using a mobile fone , ipad etc and the boat is possibly outdated . 

If the hull has been maintained and the wooden cabin too then for someone who just wants to get on the water with minimal cost and who doesn t need much " stuff " then it has the potential to be a good result for someone maybe . That someone may have to spend a few quid on a few things ....or more than a few things - but for a " hands on " type person at 12k it could be worthwhile . Rock up  in Leighton Buzzard with 9 or 10 K and youd probably get it . 

Compared to alot of the complete crap that turns up on ebay at much more money it looks ok .

I also like that it appears to be " honest " . Its old , its had a hard life , its got a wooden cabin , its very basic . No " sprucing up " to add a bit to the asking price etc . 

I dunno whether its any good or not in the flesh & the term Caveat Emptor  would be highly relevant - but for someone it could be a Bobby Dazzler 

cheers

that is why I said "for their purposes", if no one wants to hire it, it is not worth their while keeping for another season. Its like cars that are insurance write offs, they often can be recovered if someone knows what they are doing and have the resources.

.. and the English Law will assist the purchaser , this is not the case with a private sale. I would not want to buy it, as I want a long term home with minimal maintenance, a bit of style, and no roughing it, but then I will not buy that for £12K. For a young couple I would think if they are going to make a go of living on the cut, they will need to apply some practical skills and plenty of positive attitude, if they won't do this,  I am afraid they willl be sadly disillusioned.

Edited by LadyG
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The Wyvern boat looks like good value but aside from the wooden top and the 40 year old hull it's a 40 foot cruiser which means the cabin is very small, really only suitable for a single person.   But Wyvern do look after their boats and it has a solid engine and the all important Aquadrive.  I suspect Wyvern are flying a kite here, if someone comes along with £12k they'll let it go but if not just carry on hiring it out. I doubt there's much room for negotiating.

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6 hours ago, Neil2 said:

The Wyvern boat looks like good value but aside from the wooden top and the 40 year old hull it's a 40 foot cruiser which means the cabin is very small, really only suitable for a single person.   But Wyvern do look after their boats and it has a solid engine and the all important Aquadrive.  I suspect Wyvern are flying a kite here, if someone comes along with £12k they'll let it go but if not just carry on hiring it out. I doubt there's much room for negotiating.

I thnk that OP may have realised after three months of fruitless searchng for a bargain basement boat to cc Bath to Bradford upon on Avon while working in a regular job, is, that what he needs is something basic but reliable, and he needs to get it fairly quickly.

 

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