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SadieF

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Hiya

I'm new to live-aboard boating and have been researching and trying to buy a narrowboat for about 3 months now. My budget is on the lower end of the spectrum (£21k max) and i've found a 45footer just within my price range. It seems as though it's ready to live in, burner, calorifier, batteries (2 leisure 1 starter), solar panel, 12volt for cc'ing, 240v basic landline installation, last survey looks good (no overplating been done), (not had my own survey done yet), however, the engine was overheating when it was brought into brokers by previous owners. The marina advises that they will get this fixed before sale. I'm tempted to make an offer (pending survey) but not first without getting some advice about the engine situation.

 

It's a Perkins 4108 diesel. My main concern is due to the long cruise back to where I live. (London to Bristol), part of which will include a piece of the tidal thames. I really don't want to be doing that with a dodgy engine. another concern is future costs, which i have left a small budget for, but if the engine problem turns out to be something major - i'm not sure i'll have the budget for it. Plus i plan to be a continuous cruiser so this would be an issue. A bit more info about the engine - from the previous survey in Late 2013 it seems the engine was smokey when cold and on high load, cranked pressure was present - both indicators of internal wear. Also fuel leaks were present at the fuel filter top and the aft injector (which was recommended to be fixed - and at this point i assume it was). It also appears that the engine was serviced in Feb 2017.

 

So my questions are - 

1) is it possible at this stage, with the information here, to get an idea of what the cause of the engine overheating can be?

2) Is it possible that the fault could appear to be fixed after a short test cruise and an hours running of the engine, and then 4 hours cruising later start to overheat again? 

3) Are there some specific questions I should ask the brokers/owners? 

3) Am i crazy to consider this boat as an option, since I have so far to travel back? 

 

I would be very grateful for advice and information to help me make my decision. Any other advice also welcome.

 

Thanks

Sadie 

 

 

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Is this boat currently in London? If so you are likely to be paying a hefty "London Premium" so should maybe look in the midlands and North to get better value.

Really cant say what the over-heating is due to without a lot more info. At best its something like a stuck thermostat (quite likely) but could be the entire cooling system full of rusty gunge or a failed cylinder head gasket, or worse.

There will likely be significant ongoing costs, that's the nature of boating, especially with older boats which this one probably is.

The answer to question 2 is very much yes.

Do you have a mooring ready in Bristol? You cant "continuously cruise" in the Bristol area.

You are leaving it a bit late to get to Bristol, a big stoppage kicks in at Blakes lock in a months time so you have limited time to cope with any delays due to breakdowns.

.............Dave

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The Perkins 4108 is not very tolerant of overheating, and it will be 'of an age' and you should expect some wear. Is it a factory marine unit, or an automotive that has been 'marinised'? Parts are still available at a reasonable price, but a total rebuild might warrant a new replacement with a current make.

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5 hours ago, dmr said:

Is this boat currently in London? If so you are likely to be paying a hefty "London Premium" so should maybe look in the midlands and North to get better value.

Really cant say what the over-heating is due to without a lot more info. At best its something like a stuck thermostat (quite likely) but could be the entire cooling system full of rusty gunge or a failed cylinder head gasket, or worse.

There will likely be significant ongoing costs, that's the nature of boating, especially with older boats which this one probably is.

The answer to question 2 is very much yes.

Do you have a mooring ready in Bristol? You cant "continuously cruise" in the Bristol area.

You are leaving it a bit late to get to Bristol, a big stoppage kicks in at Blakes lock in a months time so you have limited time to cope with any delays due to breakdowns.

.............Dave

Absolutely correct . London folk seem quite happy to pay over the odds for thier boats . God knows why that should be but if you want take a boat to Bristol do not buy from London . It is likely to

A ) overpriced 

B ) crap

C ) overpriced & crap 

Many will " done up " which means some white paint has been applied to almost every last square inch of the interior , maybe some poncey taps & " metro " tiles in the bathroom and  wood look flooring throughout . Meanwhile behind the facade .......who knows ? 

Buying  from anywhere else away from London & its  commuter belt will be more worthwhile i expect . The North & Midlands would be much better as quoted above 

cheers

Edited by chubby
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Thanks for your replies. You've confirmed my worries and stopped me rushing in with an offer. Its only the second boat I've seen that wasn't a definite no. Have seen 10 now. I was eager to get on before winter really starts, and wanting to get back before the lock shuts. It did look like a load of fresh white paint had been put on and those white tiles. However I thought this was cheap for a 1990 built narrowboat.

In terms of the engine, I don't know if its marinised or made for boats originally. From what I hear though I should stick to a lister. 

I have factored in maintenance costs of a thousand a year at a guess, on top of the running costs (fuel, oil,licenses etc). Is that a reasonable estimate? And also is it possible to find a relatively up together boat for 20k. It may be worth me buying up north/midlands and bringing back by road. Any advice on friendly marinas/brokers up that way.

Will be cc'ing between bath and Bradford on avon. So not exactly bristol, although I do work there and will commute in.

Cheers

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10 minutes ago, SadieF said:

Will be cc'ing between bath and Bradford on avon. So not exactly bristol, although I do work there and will commute in.

I really don't want to be a 'party-pooper' but you are looking at CCing in the waters that C&RT have picked out for 'special treatment' to try and manage the problem of overstayers and non-compliant CCers - this is (probably) one of the most 'enforced' waters in the UK.

Are you fully aware of what CCing entails, and the repercussions of not complying ?

Here is a short extract from one of C&RTs reports :

Between 1 February and 30 April 2015 data checkers completed 10 separate 14 day sightings in the K&A Local Plan area. During this period 199 unique boats were identified that did not move between two or more sightings Boat owners have been contacted by text, email or letter to remind them to move, or to contact the trust if there is a reason that they cannot move.
95 have been contacted once

40 have been contacted twice

16 have been contacted three times

18 have been contacted four or more times 


The Trust is in contact with the owners of the remaining 30 boats for a number of different reasons. Allowances were made when ice on the canal made movement difficult or dangerous. All of the boats that received multiple 14 day reminders in this period were already in the enforcement process

The report then goes on to detail how many have had their licence renewal refused and how many have now left C&RT waters.

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Ive never been on the K & A . Chances are i never will . It doesn t sound overly worthwhile . My opinion only . 

So - i went on canalplan to see how long it takes to travel from Bath to Bradford on Avon . It came up as 11 miles & 6 locks . 

I laughed out loud .

So - how does one " continously " cruise over the period of a one year license on a journey from Bath to Bradford that you could complete there and back in one day and still have a pub lunch in the middle . 

Ridiculous . 

 More homework needed id humbly suggest 

Edited by chubby
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I've never been anywhere west of Foxhangers on the K&A, but from what I've read on this forum about this much discussed subject I'd be very worried about any plan to "continuously cruise" in the Bath area.

As to getting a boat from the Midlands or even the north past Blakes Lock before it closes (at the start of November I suppose, as that's when winter maintenance generally begins), that's quite possible if you buy a boat soon and it's in working order. For example Braunston to Reading via the South Oxford is about 50 hours of boating, so in October a week would be comfortable for that assuming the Thames isn't in flood.

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10 hours ago, SadieF said:

Thanks for your replies. You've confirmed my worries and stopped me rushing in with an offer. Its only the second boat I've seen that wasn't a definite no. Have seen 10 now. I was eager to get on before winter really starts, and wanting to get back before the lock shuts. It did look like a load of fresh white paint had been put on and those white tiles. However I thought this was cheap for a 1990 built narrowboat.

In terms of the engine, I don't know if its marinised or made for boats originally. From what I hear though I should stick to a lister. 

I have factored in maintenance costs of a thousand a year at a guess, on top of the running costs (fuel, oil,licenses etc). Is that a reasonable estimate? And also is it possible to find a relatively up together boat for 20k. It may be worth me buying up north/midlands and bringing back by road. Any advice on friendly marinas/brokers up that way.

Will be cc'ing between bath and Bradford on avon. So not exactly bristol, although I do work there and will commute in.

Cheers

20k is a dangerous price, you might get a bargain or you might get a liability rust bucket, so take care and most certainly get a survey.

£1000 per year on maintenance is low, if you do everything yourself you might manage it for a year or two but the first big thing to go wrong will likely push this estimate up a lot.

It would be much nicer to wait till spring and bring the down yourself, boats are made for canals, not the back of a lorry.

You really can't get away with "CCing" between Bath and BoA anymore, its an enforcement hot spot, you will loose your licence after your first year and be in a lot of trouble before that. You need to move over a much greater distance and most likely go "up the hill" and spend some time on the long pound. A fair few "Western Enders" have taken on moorings and a few have even given up boating altogether.

..................Dave

 

Edited by dmr
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15 hours ago, SadieF said:

Will be cc'ing between bath and Bradford on avon.

 

This bit leapt out at me. As others have said, that really doesn't count as CCing.

CRT will expect you to regularly cruise over a "range" of 20 or 30 miles, or get a mooring. If you try to buck this they will at first limit your licence, then cancel it if you persistently fail to comply with their required "cruising range". 

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Once your licence is cancelled they will instruct you to take your boat from their waters, and if you continue to ignore them, crane it out and (probably) take it to their yard in Chester. From there you may collect it, but not put in back in CRT water. 

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I haven't given full details of my cruising pattern plans, or future plans, as its not what my question was about. I'm aware of the rules and intend to stick to them.I'm also aware of people not having licenses renewed. 

Thanks for the advice.

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32 minutes ago, SadieF said:

I haven't given full details of my cruising pattern plans, or future plans, as its not what my question was about. I'm aware of the rules and intend to stick to them.I'm also aware of people not having licenses renewed. 

Thanks for the advice.

You appear to have given details of your plans - your 'future plans' are irrelevant, it will be what you are doing in the immediate future that will attract the attention of the Enforcement authorities.

 

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 08:50, SadieF said:

Will be cc'ing between bath and Bradford on avon. So not exactly bristol, although I do work there and will commute in.

 

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1 hour ago, SadieF said:

I haven't given full details of my cruising pattern plans, or future plans, as its not what my question was about. I'm aware of the rules and intend to stick to them.I'm also aware of people not having licenses renewed. 

Thanks for the advice.

 

No, but given you actually posted an intention to cruise in a pattern likely to attract the wrath of CRT, you'd be disappointed if no-one pointed it out surely?

 

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As regards the boat I'd walk away.  The Perkins was never a popular narrowboat engine as unlike the old BMC's and Listers it won't tolerate extended low speed running, and that's probably the regime it has been used to so far. 

As Dave says, £20k is a really risky price range.  But I reckon you are much more likely to end up with a lemon than a bargain.

It's a truly horrible time to but your first narrowboat, the market is just crazy at the moment and you will almost certainly get ripped off if you have little experience - even with the help of a surveyor. 

If all I had was £20k these days I'd look for a "write off" ie something with a worn out hull that you can get for next to nothing, then have it overplated by someone who knows what they're doing. It would cost less than £20k and at least you would know the hull is sound.  Engine wise you really want something Japanese based these days as that's what most engineers will be used to.  

 

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9 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

If all I had was £20k these days I'd look for a "write off" ie something with a worn out hull that you can get for next to nothing, then have it overplated by someone who knows what they're doing. It would cost less than £20k and at least you would know the hull is sound.  Engine wise you really want something Japanese based these days as that's what most engineers will be used to.  

 

 

This is very wise advice. Most newbies look for that fictitious boat, a 'doer-upper' with a good engine and hull and just a tired interior. No such boat exists obviously, as any boat with a good engine and hull will only have those due to being well looked after. So why would a caring long term owner then fail to keep the interior smart and nice?

Buying cheaply a boat declared a colander by some surveyor or other is a FAR better idea. They change hands for peanuts sometimes but more crucially, surveyors have a terrible habit of 'bigging up' corrosion problems and a potential colander might not actually NEED the overplating so urgently prescribed. 

Once the steel is down to 4mm surveyors tend to condemn the boat which to me seems plain stupid. Boats used to be built in the first place from steel thinner than that! A boat with 3mm on steel left after 25 years will probably survive another 25 years before it actually corrodes through even without any overplating. Such boats represent remarkable bargains these days in my opinion. 

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5 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

The first lock on the K&A (Kings Lock) is closed from end of October til March. Worth considering this restriction.

Would that be King Blake the third :D

...........Dave

14 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is very wise advice. Most newbies look for that fictitious boat, a 'doer-upper' with a good engine and hull and just a tired interior. No such boat exists obviously, as any boat with a good engine and hull will only have those due to being well looked after. So why would a caring long term owner then fail to keep the interior smart and nice?

Buying cheaply a boat declared a colander by some surveyor or other is a FAR better idea. They change hands for peanuts sometimes but more crucially, surveyors have a terrible habit of 'bigging up' corrosion problems and a potential colander might not actually NEED the overplating so urgently prescribed. 

Once the steel is down to 4mm surveyors tend to condemn the boat which to me seems plain stupid. Boats used to be built in the first place from steel thinner than that! A boat with 3mm on steel left after 25 years will probably survive another 25 years before it actually corrodes through even without any overplating. Such boats represent remarkable bargains these days in my opinion. 

So are you saying that a boat with 4mm of steel will not sink?  The other day some bloke showed me a thick piece of steel with a little hole right through it:D

................Dave

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32 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

As regards the boat I'd walk away.  The Perkins was never a popular narrowboat engine as unlike the old BMC's and Listers it won't tolerate extended low speed running, and that's probably the regime it has been used to so far.

One of the major problems with the official marinisation is that Perkins insisted that an oil cooler be fitted, it was one the cold end of the heat exchanger as a sort of extension. This lead to bad over-cooling of the oil, even on Thames work so goodness knows what would happen on canals. You ended up with thick black "grease" in the sump unless you changed the oil at exceptionally frequent intervals. Blanking the oil cooler sorted it for Thames work.

They also have something of a reputation for cracking the throat in the head from the pre-combustion chamber.

I agree, apart from cam belt engines, not the most suitable engine for canal work.

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10 minutes ago, dmr said:

Would that be King Blake the third :D

...........Dave

So are you saying that a boat with 4mm of steel will not sink?  The other day some bloke showed me a thick piece of steel with a little hole right through it:D

................Dave

 

Ah but right where the hole was, it was far thinner than 4mm!

And the discussion went along the lines of "Look, the steel all around the hole is 8mm thick! (Ok 5/16"). We are not surprised the survey 12 months previously missed the hole with the rust scab over iit", IIRC. 

So even the A1 survey report I have for that boat isn't worth the paper etc etc.  

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To clarify, the first lock on the Kennet at Reading (oddly it belongs to EA not CRT) is Blake's Lock.

I wonder whether the reference to King's Lock might be due to confusion with the lock of that name near Oxford, which is the first lock you meet going downstream on the Thames from Duke's Cut. It has the same unusual paddle mechanism as Blake's Lock, a big ship's wheel.

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50 minutes ago, Peter X said:

To clarify, the first lock on the Kennet at Reading (oddly it belongs to EA not CRT) is Blake's Lock.

I wonder whether the reference to King's Lock might be due to confusion with the lock of that name near Oxford, which is the first lock you meet going downstream on the Thames from Duke's Cut. It has the same unusual paddle mechanism as Blake's Lock, a big ship's wheel.

Yes, but Kings lock is much much prettier than Blakes, and it even has a dragon in its garden. Despite costing £5 to moor for the night we often stop there when going up the Thames, (even though its free a bit further up).

................Dave

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1 hour ago, Peter X said:

To clarify, the first lock on the Kennet at Reading (oddly it belongs to EA not CRT) is Blake's Lock.

I wonder whether the reference to King's Lock might be due to confusion with the lock of that name near Oxford, which is the first lock you meet going downstream on the Thames from Duke's Cut. It has the same unusual paddle mechanism as Blake's Lock, a big ship's wheel.

[pedant mode ON] As do all the locks going upstream fro there to Lechlade. As did all the locks before they were electrified  - but that was many, many years ago...

(On the Thames that is)

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