Help! left the electrics on! how long have I got?

[DHutch]

I guess the US brand is less well known, and he significant scope of being confused with other American companies. 

But no, as suggested above, it's a brand in it's own right who.also produce a large range of batteries. 

Daniel 

[LadyG]

54 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Had he said 'buy a Mercedes', would you have said 'do you mean a Ford ?'

trying to think of a quick witty response, ....  I may be some time .....

is that a rhetorical question? [hint] like  this one? 

Edited September 20, 2017 by LadyG

[MtB]

On 20/09/2017 at 07:23, DHutch said:

I guess the US brand is less well known, and he significant scope of being confused with other American companies. 

But no, as suggested above, it's a brand in it's own right who.also produce a large range of batteries. 

Daniel 

 

In which case the confusion has arisen from David writing US deepcycle batteries which sounds like a generic type of battery, instead of, for example, deep cycle batteries by the U.S.Battery Manufacturing Company (to give them their correct title according to their website). 

http://usbattery.com/

Is there a firm importing this brand of batteries to the UK anyway? I'd never heard of them until now. How do they compare with Trojans?

[nicknorman]

29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

In which case the confusion has arisen from David writing US deepcycle batteries which sounds like a generic type of battery, instead of, for example, deep cycle batteries by the U.S.Battery Manufacturing Company (to give them their correct title according to their website). 

http://usbattery.com/

Is there a firm importing this brand of batteries to the UK anyway? I'd never heard of them until now. How do they compare with Trojans?

They are similar to Trojans, a little more expensive but possibly a little better.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/US2200-Deep-Cycle-Monobloc-Battery-P4117.html

 

 

There is a page 2 of the data sheet but when I post the link, it turns it into just the first page

Edited September 20, 2017 by nicknorman

[Tam & Di]

14 hours ago, Jonkx said:

which at the moment are powering a 12 volt fridge.

Hopefully with the fairly brief time the fridge will be off and with the present outside temperature you won't have to deal with too noxious a mess from the contents   

[David Schweizer]

7 hours ago, LadyG said:

do you mean Trojan?

No I mean U.S. Batteries, available here:- https://www.tayna.co.uk/US-Batteries   or here:-  http://www.manbat.co.uk/us-batteries/

Trojan batteries are more readily available, and there are many who swear by them. Personally, I found that the U.S. batteries met all their claims, despite Trojan regulary trying to discredit them, and when Chris Gibson of Smartguage (Gibbo - ex of this forum) bench tested both makes, he found that The U.S.batteries had the edge on Trojans.  Both manufacturers are American, and there has been a history of contentious public rivalry between them for years.

edited to add:- Others beat me to it

Edited September 20, 2017 by David Schweizer

[rusty69]

My batteries are usually U/S after a couple of years 

[mross]

When you have time, take photos of all the gear on your boat, especially name plates and model numbers.  Next time you have trouble and are away from the boat, you will find it very helpful.  (And so will we )

[OldGoat]

Batteries are a continual topic - the more so in the 'winter' season, but little attention is paid to the best method of charging which I believe cannot be done with a standard alternator. I'm a fan of charge controllers - but there is little mention of them. Is it the cost, or do folks only pay lip service to equalisation  or float charging which I believe is not performed by a normal alternator.

Can anyone enlighten me??

 

 

[LadyG]

I ve had a look at the charging instructions which I find reassuringly clear.

They recommend three stage constant current charging constant voltage, well, we do our best with a four blinks of sun every day in UK summer, they are going to have to get used to it! 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/docs/datasheets/us-battery/charging_instructions.pdf

.. so I need to keep batteries working, topping up on a daily basis, and equalising every 30 days [I am interpolating from graph of three stage charging]

In winter: I propose use of marina electricity on an occasional basis, based on SOC [state of charge on a morning], and equalisation every 30 days.

Does this mean I MUST have a 240volt input sockety thingy on board, AND a hard wired charger which is SMART?

Should I equalise more frequently if I am in a marina on a weekly basis, there comes a time when the cost of a marina is going to be significantly more than a new battery. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by LadyG

[OldGoat]

44 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I ve had a look at the charging instructions which I find reassuringly clear.

They recommend three stage constant current charging constant voltage, well, we do our best with a four blinks of sun every day in UK summer, they are going to have to get used to it! 

https://www.tayna.co.uk/docs/datasheets/us-battery/charging_instructions.pdf

.. so I need to keep batteries working, topping up on a daily basis, and equalising every 30 days [I am interpolating from graph of three stage charging]

In winter: I propose use of marina electricity on an occasional basis, based on SOC [state of charge on a morning], and equalisation every 30 days.

Does this mean I MUST have a 240volt input sockety thingy on board, AND a hard wired charger which is SMART?

Should I equalise more frequently if I am in a marina on a weekly basis, there comes a time when the cost of a marina is going to be significantly more than a new battery. 

Only if you're going to visit a marina anyway - otherwise you can fit an alternator controller such as an Adverc which does the same job - but using your engine.

www.adverc.co.uk/

 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

Only if you're going to visit a marina anyway - otherwise you can fit an alternator controller such as an Adverc which does the same job - but using your engine.

www.adverc.co.uk/

 

bbbut.............. if you look at the graph, it indicates that the battery three stage system takes 12 hours, then equalisation another three on top.  I appreciate the alternator controller assists with battery management, but the engine is never going to run for 12 hours, and presumably equalisation has to be programmed [I  seem to recal something about the 29th of the month]

Edited September 20, 2017 by LadyG

[Jonkx]

2 hours ago, mross said:

When you have time, take photos of all the gear on your boat, especially name plates and model numbers.  Next time you have trouble and are away from the boat, you will find it very helpful.  (And so will we )

Thanks and yes, that's good advice. Cheers Jon 

[OldGoat]

20 minutes ago, LadyG said:

bbbut.............. if you look at the graph, it indicates that the battery three stage system takes 12 hours, then equalisation another three on top.  I appreciate the alternator controller assists with battery management, but the engine is never going to run for 12 hours, and presumably equalisation has to be programmed [I  seem to recal something about the 29th of the month]

Ah, but, yes, but - the document is discussing charging from a completely flat battery - if you charge  regularly, hopefully the battery bank will be only partially discharged....

[WotEver]

5 hours ago, nicknorman said:

There is a page 2 of the data sheet but when I post the link, it turns it into just the first page

When pasting a PDF select the option to display as a link instead of an image. 

https://cdn.taynabatteries.eu/datasheets/usb-2200-data-2015-WEB.pdf

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Batteries are a continual topic - the more so in the 'winter' season, but little attention is paid to the best method of charging which I believe cannot be done with a standard alternator. I'm a fan of charge controllers - but there is little mention of them. Is it the cost, or do folks only pay lip service to equalisation  or float charging which I believe is not performed by a normal alternator.

Can anyone enlighten me??

 

 

I have an alternator controller fitted and it seems to work well. I can certainly see the difference in amps on my battery monitor when I connect/disconnect the field wire (which in effect is like switching the controller on/off). Years ago here was a lot of discussion on this forum about the merits or otherwise of these devices, but I suspect the reason you don't hear much about them these days is because it became the consensus on this forum (led by Gibbo) that they offered no significant advantage in charging as long as your alternator was fairly modern and put out at least 14.4v. I don't have enough electrical knowledge to be able to argue the case for alternator controllers and to be honest I don't really care, but my own evidence shows that my charge controller can increase maximum alternator voltage from 14.4 - 14.8v (wet lead acid) and increases amps going into the batteries by about 16%. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by blackrose

[WotEver]

Looking at the charging requirements for these batts the 'ideal' is not something that's easily achievable without an expensive mains charger and, er, mains. The alternate would require an alternator controller. Basically it states, for a 12V battery...

Either...

• The ideal of three stages of:
• Bulk, rising to 14.4V 
• Absorption at 14.4V until charging current reduces to 3% of capacity
• Finish charge at 15.3V for 2 - 4 hours. 

That latter stage certainly won't be met by a standalone alternator. I'm unsure if any alternator controllers can achieve it either. The earlier stage is no problem for a modern alternator   

Or...

• Less desirable two stages of:
• Bulk rising to 14.7V
• Absorption at 14.7V until charging current reduces to 3% of capacity then hold for 2 - 3 hours. 

That voltage requirement certainly won't be met by a standalone alternator but an alternator controller may be able to achieve it, depending on make. 

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Ah, but, yes, but - the document is discussing charging from a completely flat battery - if you charge  regularly, hopefully the battery bank will be only partially discharged....

Dang, missed that wee bit of info, never thought about charging a flat battery, try not to get to that SOC

...... and that business of voltage  [ James WattEver], , can I take voltage with a multimeter [not that I know how to] while the engine is running, is the voltage a true reading.

.... just clarify this bit too .....

"

• Absorption at 14.4V until charging current reduces to 3% of capacity"
• .... what is the current what is the capacity ............ [hate to show my ignorance, my multimeter is blue, and it is from Draper]

Edited September 20, 2017 by LadyG
added pun

[OldGoat]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Dang, missed that wee bit of info, never thought about charging a flat battery, try not to get to that SOC

My point was that if you had some form of controller, then it might make a better job of charging your batteries than a 'normal' alternator in whatever reasonable time frame you have to do regular charging> it seems daft to have to visit a marina just to charge your batteries.

Whereas modern alternators can charge at higher voltages, they have no 'intelligence' to vary the voltage as a BM unit does - unless I'm told otherwise!

[LadyG]

4 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

My point was that if you had some form of controller, then it might make a better job of charging your batteries than a 'normal' alternator in whatever reasonable time frame you have to do regular charging> it seems daft to have to visit a marina just to charge your batteries.

Whereas modern alternators can charge at higher voltages, they have no 'intelligence' to vary the voltage as a BM unit does - unless I'm told otherwise!

err yes, what  I am not clear is, do I have to have a special alternator, or is this a gadget that is on the main board.

and ..  a BM unit is ... battery management unit, but what is it ?

Edited September 20, 2017 by LadyG

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

• Absorption at 14.4V until charging current reduces to 3% of capacity"
• .... what is the current what is the capacity ............ 

The charging current is the current flow into the battery when it is charging. For instance an alternator might be a 120A alternator, meaning that it has a maximum current output (rarely if ever achieved) of 120A. 

The charging current is either displayed on a mains charger, or indicated by an ammeter or other battery monitor which you would install. 

The capacity of the battery is its 'size'. For instance a 120Ah battery has a capacity of 120Ah (at C/20 but that's too deep for this thread). So 3% of battery capacity is 3% of whatever size bank you have (3.6A for one battery, 7.2A for two etc). 

[BruceinSanity]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Looking at the charging requirements for these batts the 'ideal' is not something that's easily achievable without an expensive mains charger and, er, mains. The alternate would require an alternator controller. Basically it states, for a 12V battery...

Either...

• The ideal of three stages of:
• Bulk, rising to 14.4V 
• Absorption at 14.4V until charging current reduces to 3% of capacity
• Finish charge at 15.3V for 2 - 4 hours. 

That latter stage certainly won't be met by a standalone alternator. I'm unsure if any alternator controllers can achieve it either. The earlier stage is no problem for a modern alternator   

Or...

• Less desirable two stages of:
• Bulk rising to 14.7V
• Absorption at 14.7V until charging current reduces to 3% of capacity then hold for 2 - 3 hours. 

That voltage requirement certainly won't be met by a standalone alternator but an alternator controller may be able to achieve it, depending on make. 

Alternatively, do what Gibbo does himself, apparently. Buy cheapo batteries, change them every 18 months to two years and get on with your life. My Albions from MC are now nearly two years old, charge down to a tail current of 0.5% of nominal capacity after four hours running with a bog standard Beta 43 Iskra alternator and it's rare for me to see them below 85% on the SG when I start up again the next morning.

[LadyG]

okno idea what that means except,  buy  cheap and often

Edited September 20, 2017 by LadyG

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Alternatively, do what Gibbo does himself, apparently. Buy cheapo batteries, change them every 18 months to two years and get on with your life. My Albions from MC are now nearly two years old, charge down to a tail current of 0.5% of nominal capacity after four hours running with a bog standard Beta 43 Iskra alternator and it's rare for me to see them below 85% on the SG when I start up again the next morning.

Agreed. I think those batteries (and this counts for Trojans too) are far too demanding for someone who doesn't want to involve themselves in the minutiae of battery charging. Plus they can't be adequately charged by a well wired decent alternator. 

[OldGoat]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

err yes, what  I am not clear is, do I have to have a special alternator, or is this a gadget that is on the main board.

and ..  a BM unit is ... battery management unit, but what is it ?

The idea of a BM device is that it connects to a standard alternator (it needs a minor modification) and it has the logic built in to boost the alternator's output depending on the state of the batteries. It manages the alternator based on voltage and time. BM stands for Battery Manager. It's a small box about 3" x 3" in old money that you put somewhere. I like the Adverc unit as they are very helpful and they supply a lot to emergency vehicles (which have a lot of electrics onboard). However there may be others.

 

Buy cheap and often - means buy cheap batteries, abuse them horribly and when they die buy another set. The logic is that you can get several sets  of cheapos for the price of a deep discharge good quality bank.

The flaw(s) in that logic is that -

• you may not know when the cheap set will fail (expensive ones may? give better warning)
• good batteries will give you more power between charges