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Looking to buy - unsure of what age to look for?


JamesGrant

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Hi Guys,

Recently, after a change in circumstance I've started looking to buy a Narrowboat with my girlfriend to live on. We have a couple of friends who have one and love theirs.

We've been looking around and we don't have the biggest of budgets but we could do with a slightly larger boat (around 42ft, i know this may seem small to some!).

The problem we're finding is that most of the larger boats within budget are quite old. We've been advised to get 1990 or newer but we're not sure of the reasons why?

Can anyone shed any light on this?

We have seen a couple of boats in budget and newer than 1990 through a broker so that may be an option but we're a little sceptical as they seem too good to be true.

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Welcome, James.

Yes, it's like cars or many other things, newer ones tend to be more expensive than comparable older ones. 1990 is not a particularly special cut-off point, but of course a pre-1990 boat will now be at least 27 years old. You would think carefully before buying a car of that age, but there are some serviceable ones about. The same goes for narrowboats.

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Thank you Athy and thanks for welcoming me! We're both very excited and so far loved looking around narrowboats (we've found people to generally be helpful and not pressuring).

We saw a really well kept 1980's one and then there's been some shoddy ones (not that you can always tell what the outside would be like).

We will of course get any boat surveyed, but we didn't want to start to throw any money away.

I guess the main thing that worries us is we get a lemon when it's going to be our home.

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3 minutes ago, JamesGrant said:

 

I guess the main thing that worries us is we get a lemon when it's going to be our home.

...an dof course you are right and prudent to worry.

It has been said before, but get out there and look at as many real boats (rather than boats on screens or in brochures) as possible. Besiege brokers. Walk around boats, stand on them, prod them, open cupboard doors and engine-hole covers, sit on the seats (are they comfy enough to sit on every evening?), peer into bathrooms. You will gradually get an idea of what you like and what you don't like (cruiser or trad stern? Cassette or pump-out bog? Cratch? Side hatches? Ugly but useful pram hood?), and may find certain makers' names recurring which you either like or wish to avoid.

Have you visited Whilton Marina? That probably has the greatest concentration of boats for sale anywhere in England. It's by the A5.

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1 minute ago, Athy said:

...an dof course you are right and prudent to worry.

It has been said before, but get out there and look at as many real boats (rather than boats on screens or in brochures) as possible. Besiege brokers. Walk around boats, stand on them, prod them, open cupboard doors and engine-hole covers, sit on the seats (are they comfy enough to sit on every evening?), peer into bathrooms. You will gradually get an idea of what you like and what you don't like (cruiser or trad stern? Cassette or pump-out bog? Cratch? Side hatches? Ugly but useful pram hood?), and may find certain makers' names recurring which you either like or wish to avoid.

Have you visited Whilton Marina? That probably has the greatest concentration of boats for sale anywhere in England. It's by the A5.

Thanks. Yes we went there on Saturday - we got a good idea but we did feel that they were probably slightly overpriced compared to what we had seen elsewhere. We are trying to look past the state of the inside to make it our own but of course it sometimes gives an idea of how the boat has been treated.

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9 minutes ago, JamesGrant said:

Thanks. Yes we went there on Saturday - we got a good idea but we did feel that they were probably slightly overpriced compared to what we had seen elsewhere. We are trying to look past the state of the inside to make it our own but of course it sometimes gives an idea of how the boat has been treated.

In that case I apologise, you've evidently been doing exactly the right thing, and looking for the right things, already. Going back to your original question, "age ain't nothing but a number" - condition is more important.

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2 minutes ago, Athy said:

In that case I apologise, you've evidently been doing exactly the right thing, and looking for the right things, already. Going back to your original question, "age ain't nothing but a number" - condition is more important.

No need to apologise! We really appreciate the help and wouldn't have turned to the forums if we didn't need help :)

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15 minutes ago, Athy said:

...an dof course you are right and prudent to worry.

It has been said before, but get out there and look at as many real boats (rather than boats on screens or in brochures) as possible. Besiege brokers. Walk around boats, stand on them, prod them, open cupboard doors and engine-hole covers, sit on the seats (are they comfy enough to sit on every evening?), peer into bathrooms. You will gradually get an idea of what you like and what you don't like (cruiser or trad stern? Cassette or pump-out bog? Cratch? Side hatches? Ugly but useful pram hood?), and may find certain makers' names recurring which you either like or wish to avoid.

Have you visited Whilton Marina? That probably has the greatest concentration of boats for sale anywhere in England. It's by the A5.

Almost a throw-away line, but to my mind the most revealing thing to look at is the state of the engine and what's in the engine 'ole. You can get a feeling for the general condition by looking at the interior - and folks do that, but more with a view of "we'll change that, clean that, replace whatever" rather than if it's a mess it probably hasn't been looked after and that include the bit that's in the water - the hull.

SO next time look at the outside, the mechanics as well as the accommodation. 

The next question is - do you know how much it costs to keep a boat - insurance, licences, mooring fees, fuel, waste disposal and the like? You may be surprised....

  

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3 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Almost a throw-away line, but to my mind the most revealing thing to look at is the state of the engine and what's in the engine 'ole. You can get a feeling for the general condition by looking at the interior - and folks do that, but more with a view of "we'll change that, clean that, replace whatever" rather than if it's a mess it probably hasn't been looked after and that include the bit that's in the water - the hull.

SO next time look at the outside, the mechanics as well as the accommodation. 

The next question is - do you know how much it costs to keep a boat - insurance, licences, mooring fees, fuel, waste disposal and the like? You may be surprised....

  

Thanks. Yes we have been trying to look at the outside but obviously you can't see what's below the water.

Yeah, we have added all the costs up. It's still cheaper than a house!

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9 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Almost a throw-away line, but to my mind the most revealing thing to look at is the state of the engine and what's in the engine 'ole.

  

It's something which I didn't put in my list straight away because all our boats so far have had engine rooms, so the rude mechanicals have been easily visible (too easily for some tastes), but of course you are right.

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1 minute ago, JamesGrant said:

Thanks. Yes we have been trying to look at the outside but obviously you can't see what's below the water.

Yeah, we have added all the costs up. It's still cheaper than a house!

Sorry- it had to be asked!

I'm sure others will be along shortly with more experience than I (one boat only from new) but -

If there's lot of flaking 'paint' around the waterline and rust on the hull generally, then that can be a no-no. Similarly a greasy / wet / rusty engine bay means the boat has been unloved. If not already considered, how is it heated / generate electricity  / keep food cool / cook / what sort of loo does it have.....

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James, if you spot a likely-looking boat on a broker's web site (or anywhere else), don't be afraid to post its details, or a link to that web site, on here and to ask for comments.

You will get a number of opinions, some of which may be diametrically opposed to each other, but most of which will be expressed by experienced boaters who've been doing it for years. Many, if not most, members are happy to share their opinions and knowledge.

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13 minutes ago, JamesGrant said:

 

Yeah, we have added all the costs up. It's still cheaper than a house!

For us Council tax is about £1k a year less than our Marina . House generally appreciates whilst the opposite is true of boats. Maintenance costs about the same. Buy a boat for the lifestyle and you'll be fine if your after a cheap house then it may not be for you perhaps. 

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26 minutes ago, JamesGrant said:

Yeah, we have added all the costs up. It's still cheaper than a house!

Just another 'negative' for you to consider :

Moorings can cost as much as a mortgage - you have not said whereabouts in the world you are, but many 'Southerners' look to change their rented apartments for boats, only to find that residential moorings in London can easily 'run' to £12,000 - £15,000 per year.

If you are further North then moorings will be less (maybe £4-£5000) in the 'Midlands' (Nottingham, Derby., etc), but, there again house prices tend to be much lower in the Midlands.

 

Maybe a little more information about you and your plans would yield helpful advice, eg :

Do you plan to have a mooring, in a marina, bankside, ?????

Do you need to stay pretty much in one location due to work, family, medical, school commitments ?

What sort of area are you looking at ?

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1 hour ago, Athy said:

...an dof course you are right and prudent to worry.

It has been said before, but get out there and look at as many real boats (rather than boats on screens or in brochures) as possible. Besiege brokers. Walk around boats, stand on them, prod them, open cupboard doors and engine-hole covers, sit on the seats (are they comfy enough to sit on every evening?)...

Yeah, if the seats aren't comfy walk away... :P

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1 hour ago, JamesGrant said:

 

Yeah, we have added all the costs up. It's still cheaper than a house!

 

If that's your main reason for wanting a boat to live on, please think again. Its a harder life than it looks from the outside looking in.

I also wonder if you've missed off some costs. If you brutally compare like with like (or do a proper 'whole of life' comparison) it isn't usually cheaper than a house. 

The boat for example, is unlikely to appreciate much in value over ten or twenty years, whereas a house usually does.  

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I though I'd stay well away from the 'house' issue.  Am I reasonable in thinking your destination may be London and you would be "Continually Cruising"??

In which case the cost comparisons are different and account for why the canals are 'full up'... 

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And to add to Athys list, smell it. If it smells damp and mouldy then you too will soon smell damp and mouldy and things kept in low down cupboards will go green and furry. If the broker / seller says it just needs airing he could be right but a damp boat with poor insulation and ventilation is a horrid thing.

Edited by Bee
add a bit
  • Greenie 1
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1 minute ago, Bee said:

And to add to Athys list, smell it. If it smells damp and mouldy then you too will soon smell damp and mouldy and things kept in low down cupboards will go green and furry. Good luck.

 We wouldn't want James going green and furry. But seriously, an excellent piece of advice from Bee.

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Sorry, I'll give you a little bit of background. I live up North (well to some!) around the Peak District area. Not the best place for number of marinas I know.

I however am self-employed and my girlfriend intends to go self-employed. So we're fairly flexible on location and can move about, the only thing for now is I must stay close to the Peak for my job. 

Currently, I'm renting a house with a housemate and the rent alone is £825 a month, then factor in bills etc and you can see why a narrowboat is attractive. The fact is, we don't have the money for a mortgage and because I'm recently self-employed getting one or even finding another place to rent is going to be tough.

However, we do have a campervan so we're very used to difficult, small spaces and living with less amenities than you'd get in a house. We've been told a lot that if you can cope in a camper (wild camping) then a boat shouldn't be an issue.

We do realise it is completely surreal and a different kind of life choice, but we're both a little alternative with how we live anyway and think it would suit us. As I said before, our good friends are very similar to us and love their narrowboat. We fully realise we won't know for sure until we get one but this is why we want to keep the budget low, so we're not going into it in the deep end. This is also why we visited our friends to see what it was like, because if we stepped on and thought this is crazy we would have walked away.

However, the more we look the more we feel it would suit us. Flexibility, something different, less overheads etc. We've done all the costings both from our friends and from various YouTube videos and we've priced it towards the upper end of what we think we would do. Yes we get a boat doesn't appreciate but at the end we can sell it and use it for a deposit on a mortgage if it really isn't us rather than paying money into rent.

I should also say it wasn't a spur of the moment thing, more of a shoved rather than pushed kind of thing. I had it on my mind since the start of the year and there was also the possibility of getting a big van to live in, as I say we're quite alternative. But a change in circumstance has had me thinking now is a good time to try it.

Anyway, we have spotted these two boats. We are looking for around 40ft for £25k including survery etc.

http://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/952 - We physically saw this but didn't realise how cheap it was until an internet search later. Only thing we noticed when we saw it in person was there looked to be a little rust on the hull around the waterline.

http://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/959 - This one is closer to us and looks in better condition but is a little older. We want to go and see this but the inside looks lovely.

Our only concern with this broker is they don't have the best reviews on Facebook but I got the impression the reviews are more to do with new boats they supply.

 

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22 minutes ago, JamesGrant said:

http://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/959 - This one is closer to us and looks in better condition but is a little older. We want to go and see this but the inside looks lovely.

With this one at 40 foot.

You are losing around 10 feet because of the stern design, you are 'losing' another 8 feet+ of living space with the bow, your 40 foot boat has now become a boat with 22 feet of usable space.

Deduct the bedroom (7 feet ?) and the bathroom ( 4 or 5 feet) and your 'eating, cooking and living' space is down to 10 feet.

There is a big difference in 'living' in a camper van for a week or two holiday and leaving all of your 'treasures', nick-nacks clothing etc etc etc at home and living with all of your belongings in a 6 foot x 20 foot (or 10 foot) metal tube.

What I am really saying is that whilst you can live in a small boat just take the opportunity to 'go as big as you can' and remember a 50 foot boat will (should) double your 'living area' compared to a poorly designed 40 foot boat.

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

With this one at 40 foot.

You are losing around 10 feet because of the stern design, you are 'losing' another 8 feet+ of living space with the bow, your 40 foot boat has now become a boat with 22 feet of usable space.

Deduct the bedroom (7 feet ?) and the bathroom ( 4 or 5 feet) and your 'eating, cooking and living' space is down to 10 feet.

There is a big difference in 'living' in a camper van for a week or two holiday and leaving all of your 'treasures', nick-nacks clothing etc etc etc at home and living with all of your belongings in a 6 foot x 20 foot (or 10 foot) metal tube.

What I am really saying is that whilst you can live in a small boat just take the opportunity to 'go as big as you can' and remember a 50 foot boat will (should) double your 'living area' compared to a poorly designed 40 foot boat.

Yes of course, we were thinking trad would be best but it depends what comes up. The trouble with 50ft is finding one within budget. 

We are well aware of the drastic change and downsizing efforts but we feel inspired!

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