Fitting a Webasto

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, NMEA said:

Pedant mode on today? 

Not at all.

If you said 'increased service intervals' but actually meant 'reduced service intervals' then that is very misleading - and - diametrically opposite of each other.

[Johny London]

Yes I had a look in the manual re pressurised or open vented and decided the later would be easier. Though you just need a non return valve to ensure anti freeze mix doesn't back siphon into your drinking water (amongst loads of other extra bits and pieces vs the open vented, hence my choice.

No criticism of Webasto or Eberspacer but I'm disappointed that it doesn't seem possible to just heat water alone without risking b*ggering the units up. Honestly, it is the 21st century - surely it cannot be beyond the wit of man not to have to run the radiators in the summer? I'm after not running the engine, and this ultimately coupled with a decent genny should get me there.

I'll press on anyway - get the rads and piping and so on.

[cuthound]

It will heat up just hot water in the summer, but you must be careful not to let the boiler run until it starts cycling.

My Webasto takes around half an hour to heat up the calorifier alone from cold, less if the water is already tepid. To avoid cycling if I want to use it just to heat hot water I run it for 20 minutes and then turn it off.

[Johny London]

Well that sounds perfect - 30 mins is very quick, I need 90 mins of engine running at the moment, to go from warm to nice and hot, What do you mean about not letting the boiler run until it starts cycling? My calorifier is fairly large, at 80 litres.

[cuthound]

Cycling is when the boiler reduces its output because the water returning to it is above a certain temperature. You can hear when this happens.

It is bad for the boiler because It causes It to coke up. Every now and then is ok, but it will soon misbehave if it is allowed to cycle too often.

[mrsmelly]

On ‎22‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 18:34, Johny London said:

Thanks guys - especially NMEA and canals are us. I've found the install manual https://www.butlertechnik.com/downloads/4110310A_Thermotop_C_E_Install.pdf

Much the wiser now with just one thing bugging me - I'd definitely want a valve/valves so I can control if I just heat water, have heating or both. The old central heating with system boiler (non combi) used to use a 2 port valve so you could have hot water, or hot water and heating. I remember upgrading mine to a three port valve so I could have hot water or heating or both - the new control panel and the electrics were a nightmare but it all worked. So, I'll have a think about how I'm going to achieve what I want as far as that side of it is concerned.

Any positive recommendations on used/refurb kits? I did read your thoughts above but looks a likely option for me - still SO much stuff to buy.

I am no expert and NMEA is yer man for these things. However for what its worth I bought a complete kit from fleabay over a year ago from a seller I think is called mp and h? I can check if you wish. The complete kit came with a 12 month guarantee which I thought would be worthless and was very cheap I can look back but something like 300 notes? I had it properly fitted and it has worked completely faultlessly ever since. At the moment its too warm for a stove but I regularily have it on 2 or 3 hours at a time most mornings/evenings. No smoke and the timer is also first class. Check his feedback on fleabay or I can find details if you wish. Would I buy from him again? Well hell yes cos I bought another from him ready as a spare if this or when this needs servicing.  editing to add he is mp and h and is still selling Mine was 350 complete kit. He has 688 positive feedback.

Edited September 23, 2017 by mrsmelly

[Johny London]

Funny enough that is one I was looking at - £380 now and doesn't appear to include a silencer (or water tank) but looks about the best out there.

[mrsmelly]

3 hours ago, Johny London said:

Funny enough that is one I was looking at - £380 now and doesn't appear to include a silencer (or water tank) but looks about the best out there.

It had silencer when I bought it but no tank I bought one separately, I also since buying it bought a genuine webasto silencer for half price on ebay as I oft buy stuff for spares to have in stock. The units are great or should I say mine is but I am  a risk taker in life many people are rock steady eddies as is their right so you pays yer money and takes yer chance!! Mine is on now for an hour before bed running like a good un

[jddevel]

15 hours ago, cuthound said:

t will heat up just hot water in the summer, but you must be careful not to let the boiler run until it starts cycling.

My Webasto takes around half an hour to heat up the calorifier alone from cold, less if the water is already tepid. To avoid cycling if I want to use it just to heat hot water I run it for 20 minutes and then turn it off.

I`m one of those who decided to spend the money and bought my "kit" from a Webasto dealer. The interesting thing is it came with what they considered was a "free" timer up-grade kit. Perhaps they are half way to understanding our problem of cycling.

[cuthound]

6 minutes ago, jddevel said:

I`m one of those who decided to spend the money and bought my "kit" from a Webasto dealer. The interesting thing is it came with what they considered was a "free" timer up-grade kit. Perhaps they are half way to understanding our problem of cycling.

How long does the upgraded timer keep the boiler on for?

Mine came with the fiendishly complicated timer with a tiny display that lets you set the timer to a different programme each day.

I ignore it and switch it in and off manually.

Edited September 24, 2017 by cuthound
To add the last sentance.

[Johny London]

16 hours ago, cuthound said:

It will heat up just hot water in the summer, but you must be careful not to let the boiler run until it starts cycling.

 

I didn't understand this. When you say not to let the boiler run until it starts cycling, do you mean only allow the boiler to run until it starts to cycle, then turn it off? I kept reading it differently, as wait until the boiler is cycling, then allow it to run?

So I could run just the calorifier off of the Webasto, keeping my eye/ear out for when it is cycling, meaning the water is hot. That ties in with comments about the new improved timer I think - as in it will have a short enough setting for if you are doing just water?

I'm sure it will all make a lot more sense once I have one and can see how it operates.

[cuthound]

5 minutes ago, Johny London said:

I didn't understand this. When you say not to let the boiler run until it starts cycling, do you mean only allow the boiler to run until it starts to cycle, then turn it off? I kept reading it differently, as wait until the boiler is cycling, then allow it to run?

So I could run just the calorifier off of the Webasto, keeping my eye/ear out for when it is cycling, meaning the water is hot. That ties in with comments about the new improved timer I think - as in it will have a short enough setting for if you are doing just water?

I'm sure it will all make a lot more sense once I have one and can see how it operates.

Ideally you shouldn't let the boiler cycle, as it causes it to coke up.

However the trick is, to find out how long this is for a given calorifier water temperature. 

I suggest you start the boiler and run it for say 20 minutes, if the water is hot enough for you and there is sufficient for your needs, then stick to this. If not let it cool down and try again, running it for say 30 minutes.

Repeat as necessary untill you find you are getting suffucient hot water for your needs without the boiler beginning to cycle.

You will need to repeat this process to find the optimum for spring, summer, autumn and winter.

[Johny London]

Brilliant - clear as crystal thanks. Now to choose the rads

[NB Lola]

I have a similar timer with my webasto which is now setup as we need it.  I also have a gps unit fitted as we are not  liveaboards. This allows me to remote start the unit, useful in winter as well as having a frost stat to auto start if the temp drops below 5c.  The remote start is excellent, enabling us to rock up to a warm boat in mid winter, around August time!

[SadieF]

Hiya

I wondered if anyone could give a rough estimate of how much it would cost to pay someone to fit in a webasto heater for hot water and radiators, also a radiator, which can be controlled by phone app. I know it's probably a how long is a peice of string type answer, but a rough estimate would be handy for me to factor in future costs. or any leads on people to contact for a quote in bath/bradford on avon area. Thanks

[NMEA]

Ballpark number including the Thermocall app at my pay grade in London for supply and fit with three year on board warranty would be around £4200 for a turnkey narrowboat install, adjust downward for being in the sticks.

[NB Lola]

£1,104  for the webasto and narrowboat kit, about £400 for the thermocall kit, and probably £1k to fit - midlands.  

[SadieF]

thank you. that's very handy to know

[NMEA]

2 hours ago, NB Lola said:

£1,104  for the webasto and narrowboat kit, about £400 for the thermocall kit, and probably £1k to fit - midlands.  

+ radiators, tubing, valves and other fittings.

[NB Lola]

1 hour ago, NMEA said:

+ radiators, tubing, valves and other fittings.

Of course, no idea how much they cost

[NMEA]

43 minutes ago, NB Lola said:

Of course, no idea how much they cost

Anything from a basic system at around £700 to a lovely designer or retro set up with copper pipe etc at up to 3k.

[canals are us?]

I'm a plumber by trade but gave up the domestic gas side in 2001.

I fitted my boat rads and pipework as a gravity system from my boiler stove. It cost £350 in materials including the rads 5 years ago. I am self employed and charge £100 a day whatever I do including plumbing. A boat heating system is very simple and all I have seen use plastic pipe and fittings which is a doddle to fit.

James

[Johny London]

Interesting - I was going to start a separate thread about pipework. Is there any particular reason its always done in plastic on boats? I'm assuming for vibration etc? The plastic is quite bulky with the fittings. With copper one can put a neat little "set" into the tails to the rads, if needed. Would it be a good idea to at least go to copper for the tails?

[WotEver]

My understanding of the reasons for plastic are ease and speed of installation, reliability and lack of work-hardening. 

The disadvantages are obviously neatness and appearance. 

[Johny London]

oh, I'll have to have a think about that then. Either way quite expensive for the 22mm. I'll prolly box it all in anyway, though one problem I have is getting past the hearth - how I wish I'd left a gap under it when I installed it.