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Interfering at locks


Philip

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59 minutes ago, Bunny said:

We ask for half , count to ten , half again , that's it.  It all depends on the flight of locks . The south Oxford  , ( 62ft boat) if you settle on the top gate you can open then paddles reasonably quickly, but I almost lifted a gate off , the front fender chains broken . If yiu hang around at the rear of the lock , lift the paddles, and I'm  2500 revs in reverse then forwards then backwards , not ideal , lift halfway count to 10 fully lift and its fine . Just come up from Middlewich to Macclesfield , rested on top gates not probs, paddles up ok, but I was sooner my husband is up the sharp end when the paddles are opened , you never know, I can shout at him if there's a problem, when someonelse may not appreciate me yelling 'drop the ....... paddle !!' . Bunny

Coming from Middlewich to Macclesfield you meet two contrasting sets of paddle gear.

Locks 65 and 66 on the T & M are Brindley at his best (or is that worst) and need treating with respect.

Bosley flight was built by Telford and two persons winding the top paddles fast simultaneously cannot draw them fast enough to cause any trouble.

George

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52 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Isn't it actually branded

CO

OP

Rather than COOP?

yes it is. that is a nod to the cloverleaf branding we used to have.

 

Athy, I apologise. did some digging and officially it is co-op now, seems most of my colleagues never realised either. I'm sure it got added after the rebrand launch.

 

I suppose if I had not jumped the gun and thought about it, it's because our latest mantra is back to being co-op. mainly to forget the bad times and indeed bad press the business went though whilst known as the co-operative. But also to go back to the principles that the co-op was built on.

 

Perhaps it worked as we reached our mission of becoming Britains no.1 convenience store.

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We are pretty swift at locking , using various technics we have discovered , just a bit careful with the paddles, after all its our home and has been for a few years now.. ... Some boaters feel they can  jump across from one lock gate to another , some don't . Some open the bottom gates  with front fenders ( gently ) some don't . Bunny 

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6 hours ago, pearley said:

Not strictly true in my experience.  If all gate paddle baffles were the same it might be true but some have fixed baffles that direct water down, some direct it to the side whilst other have a hinged flap. And, as has been said, some have no baffles at all.

Yes, its baffling isn't it!

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30 minutes ago, thebfg said:

I suppose if I had not jumped the gun and thought about it, it's because our latest mantra is back to being co-op. mainly to forget the bad times and indeed bad press the business went though whilst known as the co-operative. But also to go back to the principles that the co-op was built on.

But if you go to the Co-op website you'll find yourself at co-operative (dot) coop!

 https://www.co-operative.coop/

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Deeper locks still can have an issue. We have just come through the lower two Wigan locks - wide locks. Both had non-functioning towpath side ground paddles. At the upper lock I went around (its a longish way as there is no lock bridge, the original having been usurped by road traffic) to work the opposite side. On these locks you really want to open the side nearer the boat first (it varies from lock to lock, I know) so, in order to help control the boat, IO opened the gate paddle just a little. I soon discovered that even with baffles there is a giant spray which would give a boat on the same side quite a soaking. But it worked for what I wanted.

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43 minutes ago, Bunny said:

We are pretty swift at locking , using various technics we have discovered , just a bit careful with the paddles, after all its our home and has been for a few years now.. ... Some boaters feel they can  jump across from one lock gate to another , some don't . Some open the bottom gates  with front fenders ( gently ) some don't . Bunny 

All that is fine and I'm not having a go at you for being a slowcoach!

My only thought is that I slightly resent this thing that one sees quite often these days, which is that "it's my home" and therefore more important than someone's boat that isn't a live-board.  I don't see why your boat being your home makes it more important / valuable / delicate than my boat, which is only my "home" for the duration of my leisure time and holidays.  Again, not having a "go" at you personally, it's just a proliferating trend that I rather dislike because it is yet another "us and them" divisive thing.

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9 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

All that is fine and I'm not having a go at you for being a slowcoach!

My only thought is that I slightly resent this thing that one sees quite often these days, which is that "it's my home" and therefore more important than someone's boat that isn't a live-board.  I don't see why your boat being your home makes it more important / valuable / delicate than my boat, which is only my "home" for the duration of my leisure time and holidays.  Again, not having a "go" at you personally, it's just a proliferating trend that I rather dislike because it is yet another "us and them" divisive thing.

I dont think there's a need to get upperty over this .

If your boat were your 'only' home (or source of income) you might understand the concern. 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Goliath said:

I dont think there's a need to get upperty over this .

If your boat were your 'only' home (or source of income) you might understand the concern. 

 

I understand the concern. I have exactly the same concern over my boat. I dislike the "our boat is more important than yours" mentality, because it isn't.

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2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I understand the concern. I have exactly the same concern over my boat. I dislike the "our boat is more important than yours" mentality, because it isn't.

Aint it?

My boat is more important to me than it was when I also had an house. 

But that won't make my boat any more important to you or your's to mine. 

However, I will suggest my boat is perhaps much more important to me than yours might be to you  because if mine sinks in a lock I'm in trouble.  

 

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2 hours ago, Goliath said:

Aint it?

My boat is more important to me than it was when I also had an house. 

But that won't make my boat any more important to you or your's to mine. 

However, I will suggest my boat is perhaps much more important to me than yours might be to you  because if mine sinks in a lock I'm in trouble. 

 

I don't see why you would need to visit a brothel if your boat were to sink! You would have to do what everyone else does in the same circumstances, move into rented accommodation whilst you recover and fix up the boat. It would be just as much hassle for me because I live 450 miles from where the boat is moored and so I'd need to stay in the local area whilst it was all sorted out.

But the point is that I value my boat and don't want anything to happen to it. I would be devastated if it sank in a lock. Maybe you would be more devastated, but I doubt it. The point is that both of us want to ensure our boats don't sink, and to suggest that I am more careless with mine just because I only live on it some of the time, is silly and insulting.

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2 hours ago, thebfg said:

yes it is. that is a nod to the cloverleaf branding we used to have.

 

Athy, I apologise. did some digging and officially it is co-op now, seems most of my colleagues never realised either. I'm sure it got added after the rebrand launch.

 

I suppose if I had not jumped the gun and thought about it, it's because our latest mantra is back to being co-op. mainly to forget the bad times and indeed bad press the business went though whilst known as the co-operative. But also to go back to the principles that the co-op was built on.

 

Perhaps it worked as we reached our mission of becoming Britains no.1 convenience store.

Let's hope the Co-Op goes bust.

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1 hour ago, Laurie.Booth said:

Let's hope the Co-Op goes bust.

I hope not. we do too much for our local communities and I would have no job.

 

A few years ago when the bank went belly up we were about two hours away from going bust. dark times and a credit to every colleague that we have turned it around. it may of been decisions at the top that saved it but none of could of been carried out with out us.

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15 minutes ago, thebfg said:

I hope not. we do too much for our local communities and I would have no job.

 

A few years ago when the bank went belly up we were about two hours away from going bust. dark times and a credit to every colleague that we have turned it around. it may of been decisions at the top that saved it but none of could of been carried out with out us.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/sep/28/only-three-out-of-700-firms-prosecuted-for-paying-below-minimum-wage

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Edited by Laurie.Booth
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11 minutes ago, Laurie.Booth said:

thats ok, I don't work for them. they can do what they like.

they are quite a big independent society though. much like a franchise. They can go bust as it won't affect me. 

 

It's those type if ones that give us a bad name. 

 

we're the big one with over 3000 stores.

they are the expensive one with queues that give all co-ops a bad name.

 

I have had interference at a lock. some woman demanded my crew shall go to the next lock while they finished that one.

but it's a boring story really.

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17 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Obviously there is a big variation between locks on different canals. I've never been on the Wey but have been on a few other locks where caution with paddles is required. What I dislike (and this is not an accusation!) are people who demand no more than 1/2 paddle regardless of the characteristics of the locks. With the Midlands narrow locks one can generally whack both top paddles up with no drama (have to be slightly more careful on the T&M) but unfortunately there are some unthinking people who like to boat by numbers and only want half paddle regardless of the fact that it's causing barely a ripple.  I know one is not supposed to be in a hurry on the canals but deliberately doing things as slowly as possible just for the sake of it seems counterproductive - especially when others are waiting.

It is good that you mention the T&M, because that really is a case in point.

Those locks have a very powerful pull indeed, but the irony is that when the lock is empty opening the paddles full gives almost no increase in fill rate, but lots of extra circulation that drags boats about.

In fact, whacking those paddles up to much too soon inevitably leads to so much banging about that you need to lower the paddles to recover the situation, which makes it slower.

It is also noticeable that what matters with these paddles is NOT how much they are up, but how rapid the change is.

If you draw half paddles then at half full or 3/4 full draw the rest, you STILL suffer the effects, but if you draw half paddles, wait a short while, then draw one paddle up a click at a time until fully open and do the same for the other, you will have both paddles open LONG before the lock is half full.

It is about NOT doing things entirely by rote, but still having a general plan for how you are going to do things that works on a loop of "do then evaluate"

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31 minutes ago, mayalld said:

It is good that you mention the T&M, because that really is a case in point.

Those locks have a very powerful pull indeed, but the irony is that when the lock is empty opening the paddles full gives almost no increase in fill rate, but lots of extra circulation that drags boats about.

In fact, whacking those paddles up to much too soon inevitably leads to so much banging about that you need to lower the paddles to recover the situation, which makes it slower.

It is also noticeable that what matters with these paddles is NOT how much they are up, but how rapid the change is.

If you draw half paddles then at half full or 3/4 full draw the rest, you STILL suffer the effects, but if you draw half paddles, wait a short while, then draw one paddle up a click at a time until fully open and do the same for the other, you will have both paddles open LONG before the lock is half full.

It is about NOT doing things entirely by rote, but still having a general plan for how you are going to do things that works on a loop of "do then evaluate"

I agree with "do then evaluate" (although that seems to be beyond a lot of people!) but as to the rest, I mostly disagree. Firstly if the turbulence in the lock is greater with full paddle, this is because the flow rate is faster and thus the fill rate must be faster. By how much, in proportion to the increase in turbulence, is hard to quantify. It depends on the degree of turbulence-phobia I suppose. We go up and down the T&M a lot. With our 59' boat the technique is to start quite near the back of the lock. Jeff fully opens one paddle, the boat surges back a bit, just short of the bottom gates. It will then start to be pulled forwards but by this time Jeff has crossed the gate and fully opened the other paddle. The surge checks the forward pull briefly, but then NOW, with the back of the boat perhaps 3' from the bottom gate, is the time to engage reverse with a little bit of throttle on - ie before the boat picks up forward speed. If you leave reverse too late (ie react rather than anticipate) you need a lot of throttle to counter the pull, and in extremis full throttle may not be enough to prevent collision with the gate.

With a longer boat it may be better to put the front up against the gate. In this case I can agree that it's a bad idea to whack the paddle open straight away as it briefly pushes the bow back, then sucks it hard and uncontrollably forward to collide with the gate. A slower opening means the boat doesn't get pushed back so far and thus can't pick up forward speed when the surge subsides.

i dislike your one-click-at-a-time technique. It is fussy and more to the point, unnecessary. Perhaps I'd make an exception if it was single handed and the boat was left up against the front gate with a desire to prevent it getting briefly pushed back. But then if it's single handed and no-one is waiting, do whatever you like without compunction. If others are waiting, I find it best for the operator to stay on the boat whilst those in a rush operate the lock. That applies whether I am the boat owner or the waiting helper.

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7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I agree with "do then evaluate" (although that seems to be beyond a lot of people!) but as to the rest, I mostly disagree. Firstly if the turbulence in the lock is greater with full paddle, this is because the flow rate is faster and thus the fill rate must be faster. By how much, in proportion to the increase in turbulence, is hard to quantify. It depends on the degree of turbulence-phobia I suppose. We go up and down the T&M a lot. With our 59' boat the technique is to start quite near the back of the lock. Jeff fully opens one paddle, the boat surges back a bit, just short of the bottom gates. It will then start to be pulled forwards but by this time Jeff has crossed the gate and fully opened the other paddle. The surge checks the forward pull briefly, but then NOW, with the back of the boat perhaps 3' from the bottom gate, is the time to engage reverse with a little bit of throttle on - ie before the boat picks up forward speed. If you leave reverse too late (ie react rather than anticipate) you need a lot of throttle to counter the pull, and in extremis full throttle may not be enough to prevent collision with the gate.

With a longer boat it may be better to put the front up against the gate. In this case I can agree that it's a bad idea to whack the paddle open straight away as it briefly pushes the bow back, then sucks it hard and uncontrollably forward to collide with the gate. A slower opening means the boat doesn't get pushed back so far and thus can't pick up forward speed when the surge subsides.

i dislike your one-click-at-a-time technique. It is fussy and more to the point, unnecessary. Perhaps I'd make an exception if it was single handed and the boat was left up against the front gate with a desire to prevent it getting briefly pushed back. But then if it's single handed and no-one is waiting, do whatever you like without compunction. If others are waiting, I find it best for the operator to stay on the boat whilst those in a rush operate the lock. That applies whether I am the boat owner or the waiting helper.

Rule number one;

NEVER NEVER let those in a rush operate the lock.

Their objectives (to get you through fast) are not the same as yours (to get you through safely).

I would agree about anticipate the movement, and I am very used to seeing that the fore and aft trim changes quite a few seconds before the boat starts to move.

Your dislike of the click at a time is noted, and you won't ever need to do it, but I will continue to do it!

As to "The flow rate must be faster", then clearly this is true, but the point is that the increase in flow isn't huge (possibly 10%) compared to the increase in turbulence. The vast majority of the transit time through a lock is NOT the actual time taken to fill, so it may well be that half paddles then ease them up to full costs 30 seconds on the lock fill time, but I set that against the fact that I am very efficient in getting into and out of a lock (you can waste 30 seconds by winding the paddles down before opening the gates)

 

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Are we talking wide or narrow T&M locks here?

I was waiting below Aston Lock (the wide Aston Lock, not the other one) the other week and went up to help the boats in front.

The bloke on one of the boats going up drew the gate paddle first and all but flooded his well deck!

As for drawing paddles quickly......

I was heading north on the GU earlier this year.

As I pulled away from the moorings at Berko I noticed a CaRT work boat was coming up the lock below.

When I got to the next lock there was a crew of CaRT chappies waiting to work their boat through.

They worked me up the lock by drawing all 6 paddles at the same time! They were in a hurry.

It was a bit of a bumpy ride and RW moved from one side of the lock to the other but nothing I couldn't cope with by using a bit of power and rudder.

(No bow thruster was used in these manoeuvres!)

They were waiting at the next couple of locks and did the same.

I was single handing and a bit of a hurry too so was grateful for their help.

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12 minutes ago, mayalld said:

Rule number one;

NEVER NEVER let those in a rush operate the lock.

Their objectives (to get you through fast) are not the same as yours (to get you through safely).

I would agree about anticipate the movement, and I am very used to seeing that the fore and aft trim changes quite a few seconds before the boat starts to move.

Your dislike of the click at a time is noted, and you won't ever need to do it, but I will continue to do it!

As to "The flow rate must be faster", then clearly this is true, but the point is that the increase in flow isn't huge (possibly 10%) compared to the increase in turbulence. The vast majority of the transit time through a lock is NOT the actual time taken to fill, so it may well be that half paddles then ease them up to full costs 30 seconds on the lock fill time, but I set that against the fact that I am very efficient in getting into and out of a lock (you can waste 30 seconds by winding the paddles down before opening the gates)

 

Rule number one is your rule. You invented it so don't be too surprised if others don't abide by it! The canals were of course originally a major transport system where time was money and so probably most people were in a rush. In what way were the boatmen of 200 years ago so much more competent than you that they could rush and do it in safety?

But anyway, rush is not the word I'd actually have used if I'd thought about it properly. "Rush" implies hurrying to the point of taking risks and cutting corners. "In a hurry" is better but mostly, we are not in a hurry. I just find it a bit irritating watching folk doing stuff at half speed when doing it at full speed would be equally safe and take less effort. Being expeditious is perhaps the word.

if you look at it dispassionately, we both have similar boats. We use different techniques, have different degrees of angst, and take different amounts of time when going through locks. But we have both done thousands of locks without damage or catastrophe or even alarm. But our approach is more expeditious and yet more relaxing than yours. So it seems to me that by any logical metric, our ideas are better!

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6 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Being expeditious is perhaps the word.

"Efficient"works for me. 

Being at the supermarket checkout with your method of payment to hand so as to pay the cashier promptly is efficient. Looking surprised when you're told the total, as if you didn't realise you'd have to pay, then rummaging in your capacious bag to find your purse, followed by laboriously counting out each penny before realising you can't give the exact amount after all isn't efficient, yet it appears to be the most common method employed by whoever's in front of me in Asda. 

There, I feel better now. 

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18 minutes ago, WotEver said:

"Efficient"works for me. 

Being at the supermarket checkout with your method of payment to hand so as to pay the cashier promptly is efficient. Looking surprised when you're told the total, as if you didn't realise you'd have to pay, then rummaging in your capacious bag to find your purse, followed by laboriously counting out each penny before realising you can't give the exact amount after all isn't efficient, yet it appears to be the most common method employed by whoever's in front of me in Asda. 

There, I feel better now. 

I feel your pain!

But on the semantics, efficient and expeditious mean different things. Efficient means doing something for maximum effect with minimum energy expended. It has no sense of time or speed. Expeditious means being efficient, but also speedy.

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36 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Rule number one is your rule. You invented it so don't be too surprised if others don't abide by it! The canals were of course originally a major transport system where time was money and so probably most people were in a rush. In what way were the boatmen of 200 years ago so much more competent than you that they could rush and do it in safety?

But anyway, rush is not the word I'd actually have used if I'd thought about it properly. "Rush" implies hurrying to the point of taking risks and cutting corners. "In a hurry" is better but mostly, we are not in a hurry. I just find it a bit irritating watching folk doing stuff at half speed when doing it at full speed would be equally safe and take less effort. Being expeditious is perhaps the word.

if you look at it dispassionately, we both have similar boats. We use different techniques, have different degrees of angst, and take different amounts of time when going through locks. But we have both done thousands of locks without damage or catastrophe or even alarm. But our approach is more expeditious and yet more relaxing than yours. So it seems to me that by any logical metric, our ideas are better!

Yes, rule number 1 is my rule, and I apply it to any lock where my boat is in the lock. I care not whether others abide by it when I'm not around, but if my boat is involved, compliance is not optional!! It is also a rule that I would commend to others.

I too like to work through locks efficiently.

When a lock gate opens, wherever possible, I will be lined up to enter (allowing space for another boat to leave where necessary)

Going down, I will step off to close the head gate whilst the boat is moving, then step back on to stop it, so that the crew can be ready at the lower paddles to wind, rather than there being a lag whilst the walk the length of the lock.

I always try to manage effort to set the next lock ready (unless there are other boats in the picture, what is the point of getting through a lock fast only to stop whilst you set the next one.

I have a particular thing about people who wind paddles down before opening the gates. It isn't on the critical path - wind the paddles down once the gates are open, you have spare time then.

 

All in all, I think I operate locks VERY efficiently, so I dispute your claim that your operation is more expeditious than mine. I suspect that in some other areas my operation is more efficient than yours. My actual fill time may well be seconds slower than yours, but in my view I operate unknown paddles as fast as is reasonable, and the few extra seconds mean that I can ensure safe operation. I win those seconds back elsewhere in the process.

 

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