Interfering at locks

[AndrewIC]

You pride and joy in the lock, your rules. I'll offer to wind paddles, but only if you say so. My P&J in the lock, my rules. Offers of help usually accepted, but you check with me before you wind, please.

Although I did offer a word of friendly advice this summer, about not leaving the windlass on the spindle, to the self-confessed novice crew of the boat which had been craned in about 200 yards away and who were doing their first lock ever. Seemed to be well received.

[thebfg]

8 hours ago, Athy said:

Nick, anyone who tries applying analogy to the English language is on a hiding to nothing! Think of the eight (at least) pronunciations of "ough" for example.

You're certainly right about the Co-op, though the French call it "le Coop", I guess they sell chickens. A hyphen can help to clarify a word's meaning. 

just a small point, the shop was known as the co-operative and is now known as the coop as it used to be known many years ago.

Edited September 12, 2017 by thebfg
a missing letter

[rasputin]

51 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Oi! I said that already!

If noone repeated anything, the forum would die

[Cheshire cat]

I've come to this a bit late but can categorically state that opening the ground paddles and then waiting before using the gate paddles is what is taught on the RYA sponsored boat handling courses. I've been there and done the course. 

I do agree though that on the Shroppy the gate paddles are benign and no damage will ensue if you raise the gate paddles first. 

I did see a guy whip up the gate paddles in a lock on the Avon last year and flush his wife's pot plants overboard. She wasn't best pleased. Luckily the bow doors were closed.

 

[nicknorman]

7 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

I've come to this a bit late but can categorically state that opening the ground paddles and then waiting before using the gate paddles is what is taught on the RYA sponsored boat handling courses. I've been there and done the course. 

I do agree though that on the Shroppy the gate paddles are benign and no damage will ensue if you raise the gate paddles first. 

I did see a guy whip up the gate paddles in a lock on the Avon last year and flush his wife's pot plants overboard. She wasn't best pleased. Luckily the bow doors were closed.

 

So what is taught for locks where there are only gate paddles and no ground paddles? Take the car instead? Wait for heavy rain?

[Rob-M]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

So what is taught for locks where there are only gate paddles and no ground paddles? Take the car instead? Wait for heavy rain?

Just keep ramming the top gate with the boat until water is over the gate paddle .

We came to a lock on the Soar and the guy in front was just stood there not knowing what to do as he thought the ground paddles had been locked off and he didn't want to open the gate paddles first.  I explained the anti-vandal locks to him, I'm not sure what he was going to do as there was no way he was going to allow a gate paddle to be opened first.

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

Just keep ramming the top gate with the boat until water is over the gate paddle .

We came to a lock on the Soar and the guy in front was just stood there not knowing what to do as he thought the ground paddles had been locked off and he didn't want to open the gate paddles first.  I explained the anti-vandal locks to him, I'm not sure what he was going to do as there was no way he was going to allow a gate paddle to be opened first.

This is the problem with "rules" about locks - the canals are so diverse in construction that "boating by numbers" can't work. You do need a modicum of common sense which, as we know, is not very common.

[Dave_P]

18 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

We had one of those a couple of years ago. The Memsahib though it was my doing until she saw the "helper" at the gate paddle.

I once lost a whole barrel of homebrew all over the galley floor, as a result of a 'helper' lifting a paddle too quickly. 

[john6767]

8 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

I've come to this a bit late but can categorically state that opening the ground paddles and then waiting before using the gate paddles is what is taught on the RYA sponsored boat handling courses. I've been there and done the course. 

I do agree though that on the Shroppy the gate paddles are benign and no damage will ensue if you raise the gate paddles first. 

I did see a guy whip up the gate paddles in a lock on the Avon last year and flush his wife's pot plants overboard. She wasn't best pleased. Luckily the bow doors were closed.

 

The Avon only has gate paddles and the are unbaffled, there are well known for being evil when going up.  You have to crack them open very gently and you still get a nice jet of water that could easily go into the boat.

 

[Captain Pegg]

Like the OP I would be somewhat miffed if someone tried to instruct me on what to do at a lock where it was only my boat that was in the chamber.

Most gate paddles are well protected in terms of ability to flood well decks but some do create strong flows. The Avon is a different matter altogether because they only have gate paddles and they are massive and violent. Nothing really equivalent on the canals I am familiar with. As stated though if you have a short boat in a narrow lock and keep it back when ascending it isn't a problem. I generally put all paddles up one straight after the other and I don't always bother with the offside ground paddle before I raise the gate paddle.

At least with a gate paddle you know where the water is going to flow. On most locks it would be far more useful to know what the ground paddle is going to do. I had a bit of an incident in Fradley middle lock a couple of weeks ago when the ground paddle drew the boat forward at a great rate into the top gate while my 10 year old daughter was at the helm. At the next lock I stepped off on entry to close the bottom gates while she stopped the boat. A crew waiting to descend then immediately starting raising the paddles without any communication. I instructed them to stop while I positioned the boat in order to avoid a repeat of the incident that had occurred at the previous lock. Unfortunately they then got the impression I was a fussy boater as when I asked them to raise the paddles I got two clicks and stop followed by me prompting them to do more and getting another two clicks, then another prompt and another two clicks, and so on...

I am very happy to leave others to work locks for me when I single hand so I can stay on board but I find that single handing demands a routine and rhythm that suits the individual and partial 'help' generally I find is actually a hindrance as it disrupts the routine and rhythm and that includes from many volockies.

However the one offer of help that I suspect will find universal thanks from boaters is "I'll close the gates behind you when you go".

JP

Edited September 13, 2017 by Captain Pegg

[X Alan W]

16 hours ago, Tim Lewis said:

One of the more interesting documentaries I have seen was about the Korean 747 that crashed near Hatfield 20 odd years ago where it was concluded that the Korean crews culture of not questioning the chief pilots mistakes was a major contributory factor.

Tim

That bring s back memory's the last investigation I was part of the team (before retirement) the second officer was a last minute replacement & had only just joined KA after employment by an US airline, the captain was an ex Korean fighter pilot he questioned a  procedure the captain performed on take off & was told in no uncertain terms that that KA cockpit crew operate in this manner From the cockpit voice recorder "you could cut the air with a knife would be a gross understatement" so as the flight was a fair length he thought keeping "stum" being the best idea with sadly the fatal results due to the captains I know best at all costs  attitude, Sad that a nations way of culture caused this

Edited September 13, 2017 by X Alan W

[magpie patrick]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

So what is taught for locks where there are only gate paddles and no ground paddles? Take the car instead? Wait for heavy rain?

Wrong way round, but Struncheon Hill Lock on the Driffield navigation used to empty without paddles, you only needed them to fill it...

[pearley]

12 hours ago, Cheshire cat said:

I've come to this a bit late but can categorically state that opening the ground paddles and then waiting before using the gate paddles is what is taught on the RYA sponsored boat handling courses. I've been there and done the course. 

I do agree though that on the Shroppy the gate paddles are benign and no damage will ensue if you raise the gate paddles first. 

I did see a guy whip up the gate paddles in a lock on the Avon last year and flush his wife's pot plants overboard. She wasn't best pleased. Luckily the bow doors were closed.

 

That is what most boaters would do but:

Came up Bartow Deep Lock yesterday.  Jeannette found it impossible to wind up either of the ground paddles and neither could a male boater waiting to descend, despite both of them having extended length windlass'. So it was very gently with the gate paddles. Once the lock was over half full then the ground paddles could be opened. So wster pressure holding them shut.

[pearley]

4 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

 

At least with a gate paddle you know where the water is going to flow. 

Not strictly true in my experience.  If all gate paddle baffles were the same it might be true but some have fixed baffles that direct water down, some direct it to the side whilst other have a hinged flap. And, as has been said, some have no baffles at all.

[Scholar Gypsy]

5 hours ago, nicknorman said:

So what is taught for locks where there are only gate paddles and no ground paddles? Take the car instead? Wait for heavy rain?

Ribble link today (from FB)

[nicknorman]

33 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

Ribble link today (from FB)

Yes, that should remove the need to open the gate paddles!

[Machpoint005]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Yes, that should remove the need to open the gate paddles!

Or even the need to open the lock gates - just steer around the lock!

[Bunny]

I must admit, when it looks like a helpful person is about to lift paddles , either myself (on the boat ) or husband , cheerfully call out ' just halfway thank you' we find that, if said in a pleasant manner no one can feel offended , and there isint too much 'banging about ' by the boat ...... The River Wey you have to rope ( National trust by law) , I prefer too even with 2 boats in the locks.  The gate paddles arn't baffled ,.its like pulling a bath plug out , the speed the water can rush in , thats a request for ' just 2 turns please' , the gates are much thinner and can't take much knocking about. A few years ago a pair of top gates had to be replaced because of damage , and the boater that caused the damage had to claim on his insurance. 

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, Bunny said:

I must admit, when it looks like a helpful person is about to lift paddles , either myself (on the boat ) or husband , cheerfully call out ' just halfway thank you' we find that, if said in a pleasant manner no one can feel offended , and there isint too much 'banging about ' by the boat ...... The River Wey you have to rope ( National trust by law) , I prefer too even with 2 boats in the locks.  The gate paddles arn't baffled ,.its like pulling a bath plug out , the speed the water can rush in , thats a request for ' just 2 turns please' , the gates are much thinner and can't take much knocking about. A few years ago a pair of top gates had to be replaced because of damage , and the boater that caused the damage had to claim on his insurance. 

Obviously there is a big variation between locks on different canals. I've never been on the Wey but have been on a few other locks where caution with paddles is required. What I dislike (and this is not an accusation!) are people who demand no more than 1/2 paddle regardless of the characteristics of the locks. With the Midlands narrow locks one can generally whack both top paddles up with no drama (have to be slightly more careful on the T&M) but unfortunately there are some unthinking people who like to boat by numbers and only want half paddle regardless of the fact that it's causing barely a ripple.  I know one is not supposed to be in a hurry on the canals but deliberately doing things as slowly as possible just for the sake of it seems counterproductive - especially when others are waiting.

[Captain Pegg]

4 hours ago, pearley said:

Not strictly true in my experience.  If all gate paddle baffles were the same it might be true but some have fixed baffles that direct water down, some direct it to the side whilst other have a hinged flap. And, as has been said, some have no baffles at all.

True but for a gate paddle you know exactly where the water will enter the chamber and which way the configuration of the baffle will send it. On ground paddles you have no idea where the water will enter the chamber if you aren't familiar with the lock.

JP

[Bunny]

We ask for half , count to ten , half again , that's it.  It all depends on the flight of locks . The south Oxford  , ( 62ft boat) if you settle on the top gate you can open then paddles reasonably quickly, but I almost lifted a gate off , the front fender chains broken . If yiu hang around at the rear of the lock , lift the paddles, and I'm  2500 revs in reverse then forwards then backwards , not ideal , lift halfway count to 10 fully lift and its fine . Just come up from Middlewich to Macclesfield , rested on top gates not probs, paddles up ok, but I was sooner my husband is up the sharp end when the paddles are opened , you never know, I can shout at him if there's a problem, when someonelse may not appreciate me yelling 'drop the ....... paddle !!' . Bunny

[Machpoint005]

The degree to which the paddles are opened only has a marginal effect on the total transit time in most cases. Think about the time spent landing the crew, manoeuvring into the lock, closing gates, waiting for gates to open (fully on narrow locks), manoeuvring out of the lock, picking up the crew, and so on .. only the time for the lock to fill or empty is affected by paddle operations, and that quite often makes surprisingly little difference. .  

It's much like the difference between travelling at 30mph between sets of traffic lights, and blasting up to 50mph only to be caught by the next red. 

Anyway -- if you want to rush about, try the M6 / M40 to Silverstone. 

[Tacet]

19 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Oi! I said that already!

If no-one repeated anything, the forum would die.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Tacet said:

If no-one repeated anything, the forum would die.

If no-one repeated anything, the forum would die.

[nicknorman]

40 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

The degree to which the paddles are opened only has a marginal effect on the total transit time in most cases. Think about the time spent landing the crew, manoeuvring into the lock, closing gates, waiting for gates to open (fully on narrow locks), manoeuvring out of the lock, picking up the crew, and so on .. only the time for the lock to fill or empty is affected by paddle operations, and that quite often makes surprisingly little difference. .  

It's much like the difference between travelling at 30mph between sets of traffic lights, and blasting up to 50mph only to be caught by the next red. 

Anyway -- if you want to rush about, try the M6 / M40 to Silverstone. 

 

The percentage difference it makes obviously depends on how much faffing about there is with the rest of the operation. In a flight of locks there is no landing of the crew. I tend to drive into locks at 2-3mph within seconds of the gate being opened (unlike some people who watch while the lock drains, watch while the water flow subsides to nothing, watch while the gates are opened and only then start thinking about untying their boat). Going down I hit reverse and get off to close the gate, Jeff winds paddles shortly before the gate is actually closed, boat still moving. So the draining time is the primary time spent stationary. Going up is slightly slower because I don't get off and Jeff, having closed the bottom gates, has to scamper up to the top paddles. But still, the filling time is the primary time consumer.

It is not about rushing - although I resent that you think you can dictate whether I may rush or not - it is about being efficient and expeditious. Why take 10 minutes to do something that can be done in 5, and probably with less effort than the people taking 10 minutes?

That said, the kind of technique mentioned by Bunny obviously doesn't significantly effect the time, but some people insist on using 1/2 paddle until the lock is about 1/2 full which on slow filling locks like the Coventry, adds completely unnecessary but significant transit time. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by nicknorman