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Boats used by the 'Idle Women'


Leo No2

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I should know, but don't and I know some prefer not to call them 'Idle Women' because of course they were anything but idle but I feel I can call them that because my Aunt (who started the 'Idle Women' off) rather enjoyed the term!

Does anyone have a full list of the boats they used? I suspect Mike Constable may have a fairly definitive list.

I have Heather Bell (although Heather Bell stayed on the Servern and in that area) and of course Dipper is well documented but what of the others?  Sun and Moon were I think but I may be wrong and what about Ascot which was used in a well known image.

Anyone prepared to help draw up a list - I have looked on here but not doing very well at the moment.

Edited by Leo No2
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The Grand Union Canal Carrying Company Ltd. fleet list dated 14 September 1944 suggests that the following pairs were operated by women:

ANTONY and ALPHONS

ATLAS and CAPELLA

CAPRICORN and CLEOPATRA

CERES and CETUS

DEIMOS and VELA

PHOBOS and MOON

SUN and DIPPER

ASCOT and CRATER

BATTERSEA and UTTOXETER

BOGNOR and DODONA

Period photographs also indicate that the motors HERCULES and HYPERION as well as the butty PAVO were operated by the volunteer women during the Second World War :captain: 

edit = there are a couple of photographs published in Idle Women that are captioned as ALCOR, but I have nothing that can confirm these to be correct.

 

Edited by pete harrison
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10 minutes ago, billS said:

Which of these still exist?

Generally speaking if it was steel, iron or composite construction originally, it will in some form, whereas if it was an all wooden "Ricky" boat, the strong odds are it will not.

Several butties on Pete's list are these days now converted to motor boats, or in some cases TWO motor boats, with the original back end now forming a front end of a new boat in addition to the original front end being part of another boat.  At least Dodona and Vela are definitely examples of this.

Some of the original motors are no longer full length, (e.g. Antony, Capricorn & Deimos).  Deimos (which BW confusingly renamed Slough - there is another Slough - is by far the most mucked about with, and hardly recognisable as having been a "Star" class boat, having had its front end dramatically changed to form a push tug.

Ascot and Hyperion are both still working boats in as much as they carry still retail coal for resale, (i.e. "Fuel Boats"). 

I've probably already made at least one mistake, so I'll stop there and await correction(s) from Pete!

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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

Several butties on Pete's list are these days now converted to motor boats, or in some cases TWO motor boats, with the original back end now forming a front end of a new boat in addition to the original front end being part of another boat.  At least Dodona and Vela are definitely examples of this.

I've probably already made at least one mistake, so I'll stop there and await correction(s) from Pete!

I am happy with your comments Alan, no need for correction(s) - but I can add CETUS as another butty where both ends are now the fore ends of counter sterned motors where the original fore end is named CETUS and the original stern is named BLUE NUN :captain:

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5 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

Crater is still with us now renamed "Taurus" ex hotel butty offered for sale a short time back. I owned  worked & hoteled with it in the late 60's early 70's

Alan - Crater is sitting outside my house now, along with Bootes, and was renamed Crater (from Taurus) by the current owners quite recently.

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8 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

Crater is still with us now renamed "Taurus" ex hotel butty offered for sale a short time back. I owned  worked & hoteled with it in the late 60's early 70's

As Kathryn says, it is now once again "Crater".

Am I right in thinking that this is a boat that has had its draught reduced significantly during some rebottoming exercise, or am I confusing it with a different boat?  (You can't tell when they are in the water!)

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26 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Am I right in thinking that this is a boat that has had its draught reduced significantly during some rebottoming exercise, or am I confusing it with a different boat?  (You can't tell when they are in the water!)

Yes.

I saw CRATER as a hulk at Oxford in 1982 with a new(ish) steel bottom and its footings removed. Unfortunately I was not taking photographs back then :captain:

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Many years ago, Olga Kevelos was interviewed by Libby Purves ( I think for Womans  Hour) in the cabin of the "Cassiopeia", which Olga reckoned was a motor they had at the time. I'm not sure about this, was her memory playing tricks? Bill Hambridge certainly had this boat from about 1943, were the trainees active before this?

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I passed Alphons moored on the offside at Dunsley on the Staffs & Worcs a couple of weeks ago. At least I thought it was the real thing and it certainly looked like it although the HNBC website says it has been moored on the Avon for a number of years. It also says it has a quarter length cabin but I thought it was longer than that. Shame I didn't take a picture. The cabin looked like the 1972 vintage it apparently is. No other boat of that name on the Canal Plan boat listing. Therefore I assume there never were two boats made from the ends of one butty in this case - at least not both claiming to be the original.

Atlas is of course still extant with the BCNS/CCT in the company of butty Malus. That's despite my best efforts to scupper it.

JP

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14 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

As Kathryn says, it is now once again "Crater".

Am I right in thinking that this is a boat that has had its draught reduced significantly during some rebottoming exercise, or am I confusing it with a different boat?  (You can't tell when they are in the water!)

Yes you are correct when my wife was taken ill & we could no longer hotel iput the boats up for sale "Lily" sold to Willow Wren Kearns "at Middlewich & my hotel booking agent Harry Machin at Holidays Afloat Market Drayton took "Crater to sell, but he ended up buying,& it sat on the bank for a lengthy time the next time i came across it was "Snipe & Taurus"working up the Bosley Flight around 2001/2  the skipper (Derek Fearnley?) & myself started chatting as I told him I had worked a hotel pair, when the name "Crater" was brought up I was given the info that"Taurus" was in fact "Crater" & that as the wooden bottom & footings required work they had cut the sides to take out the rot & welded a new steel bottom to the now sound sides this reduced the sides height ISTR a 1ft was mentioned but am not sure on that. Is "Crater" still converted or has it been taken back to working trim? Scrub this question have just seen the photo

Edited by X Alan W
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2 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

Yes you are correct when my wife was taken ill & we could no longer hotel iput the boats up for sale "Lily" sold to Willow Wren Kearns "at Middlewich & my hotel booking agent Harry Machin at Holidays Afloat Market Drayton took "Crater to sell, but he ended up buying,& it sat on the bank for a lengthy time the next time i came across it was "Snipe & Taurus"working up the Bosley Flight around 2001/2  the skipper (Derek Fearnley?) & myself started chatting as I told him I had worked a hotel pair, when the name "Crater" was brought up I was given the info that"Taurus" was in fact "Crater" & that as the wooden bottom & footings required work they had cut the sides to take out the rot & welded a new steel bottom to the now sound sides this reduced the sides height ISTR a 1ft was mentioned but am not sure on that. Is "Crater" still converted or has it been taken back to working trim? Scrub this question have just seen the photo

Alan - still in 'Hotel Boat trim' but converted to live on by Steve and Steph Furniss with their daughter Eliza.  If no one posts a picture from this year's Village at War event I'll pop out and take one for you.

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1 minute ago, Leo No2 said:

Alan - still in 'Hotel Boat trim' but converted to live on by Steve and Steph Furniss with their daughter Eliza.  If no one posts a picture from this year's Village at War event I'll pop out and take one for you.

KaThryn Do they  moor at SB full time ? Ray T posted a photo Look extremely tidy but then I read on the cabin side was Steve does for a living I f you happen to speak to them give them my regards for keeping "Crater "up togther many thanks & if its not to much bother a photo would be nice

Alan

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Just now, X Alan W said:

KaThryn Do they  moor at SB full time ? Ray T posted a photo Look extremely tidy but then I read on the cabin side was Steve does for a living I f you happen to speak to them give them my regards for keeping "Crater "up togther many thanks & if its not to much bother a photo would be nice

Alan

Usually Weedon - Steve runs the old Concoform Boat Yard (http://www.grandunionnarrowboats.co.uk) but in Stoke Bruerne for a while for Village at War - Steph is a manager at the Museum.

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12 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

I passed Alphons moored on the offside at Dunsley on the Staffs & Worcs a couple of weeks ago. At least I thought it was the real thing and it certainly looked like it although the HNBC website says it has been moored on the Avon for a number of years. It also says it has a quarter length cabin but I thought it was longer than that. Shame I didn't take a picture. The cabin looked like the 1972 vintage it apparently is. No other boat of that name on the Canal Plan boat listing. Therefore I assume there never were two boats made from the ends of one butty in this case - at least not both claiming to be the original.

Atlas is of course still extant with the BCNS/CCT in the company of butty Malus. That's despite my best efforts to scupper it.

JP

Not sure if this will be readable but Google shows that the conversion of Alphons to a motor was done by Malcolm Braine around 1972.

https://issuu.com/waterwaysassoc/docs/lymm72_0002/37

(Right hand picture, middle row, page 37).

This is probably when buttys were plentiful enough not to consider using the back ends to make another boat.  I assume that largely only came later after Braine lost the ability to buy redundant craft from BW for peanuts, and make a lot of money out of converting them.

The customer for Alphons shows as "Mrs M Ridout", who was of course "Idle Woman" Margaret Cornish who wrote the book "Troubled Waters" about her experiences.  From memory the book shows pictures of the boat working as a butty, and also in converted state in her ownership. (Possibly she says much oif the book was written on board it, I'm not sure now?). Back then, I think it carried most of a full cabin conversion.

 

Edited by alan_fincher
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It is difficult to come up with a complete list of boats worked by the Canal Boatwomen Trainees as pairings and crews changed quite a lot during the 3 years they were in operation.  In addition to those noted by Peter Harrison above, I can add

BAINTON and SALTLEY,                 HYPERION and NEBULAE,             HERCULES and CETUS, later HYPERION and CETUS, but note CETUS also worked with CERES with a different crew of Women.

COROLLA and ASTRA(E)A         PAVO replaced UTTOXETER after the V2 attack on City Road damaged Uttoxeter.  I also have a film showing Trainees on SERPENS with an unidentified Motor, but have no other reference to that.  The Captions in 'Troubled Waters' are notoriously inaccurate - ALCOR was a Fireboat so is unlikely to have been used for carrying and an author who is writing about Olga advises me not to put too much trust in anything she is supposed to have said.  I knew Olga and tend to agree with him.  None of the other Trainees I have spoken to have ever mentioned Cassiopeia as being one of theirs.

It would help tremendously if someone could come up with more 'Manning Lists' from the quarterly reports kept by GUCCC!

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On 9/11/2017 at 15:44, alan_fincher said:

Generally speaking if it was steel, iron or composite construction originally, it will in some form, whereas if it was an all wooden "Ricky" boat, the strong odds are it will not.

Several butties on Pete's list are these days now converted to motor boats, or in some cases TWO motor boats, with the original back end now forming a front end of a new boat in addition to the original front end being part of another boat.  At least Dodona and Vela are definitely examples of this.

Some of the original motors are no longer full length, (e.g. Antony, Capricorn & Deimos).  Deimos (which BW confusingly renamed Slough - there is another Slough - is by far the most mucked about with, and hardly recognisable as having been a "Star" class boat, having had its front end dramatically changed to form a push tug.

Ascot and Hyperion are both still working boats in as much as they carry still retail coal for resale, (i.e. "Fuel Boats"). 

I've probably already made at least one mistake, so I'll stop there and await correction(s) from Pete!

Cleopatra is converted and motorised, but still retains its butty stern. It is a residential boat in London.

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I've seen a brief clip in a pathe type film of some trainees standing next to Hawkesbury, which appeared to be fuelling up. It may well have been a demonstration, sadly the clip is on my old, dead phone. 

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Well, not in my copy of that film Ray. but looks like Serpens and as I identified the crew in the first place I agree with you.  Betty had Deimos and Vela mush of the time before she broke an ankle or leg and returned to the Bank.  Kit Gayford and Monica Martin, (otherwise known as Frankie) also appear so the unidentified motor may be Battersea. Having looked again though it probably is Uttoxeter. Back to square one.  I can see rivets.

Edited by BuckbyLocks
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