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bigcol

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There are some who pay now to be caned :D

 

mum and dad caned me, at the time it was punishment, 

it was the fear of being caned stopped me doing a lot of the things that young people do today

and I'd the local copper caught me he would, he would cuff me around the ears, they rang!!!

2/3 times as Ivan remember, being caught playing about inside rhe empty prefabs.

for a big bloke as I remember he could run, and roar like a lion!!!!!

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To throw in my 4 penn'orth as one who has also worked in the Criminal Justice arena for over 30 years, all this talk of punitive treatment, caning,national service, etc.etc totally ignores one vital point in the criminal mind; when they commit the act they have no intention of being caught so whatever punishment that you wish to throw at them is largely irrelevant. I have known of very few criminals who weigh up the pros and cons of what will happen to them if they are caught, since that is not their intention. The only obvious exception to this are the hard core drug addicts who know what the consequences are likely to be and really don't care one way or the other (that is the effect of addiction), they know they will be periodically arrested and locked up and honestly don't care. Retributive punishment has nothing to do with 'tough love' or any other catchphrases, it is all to do with making the rest of us feel better about punishment inflicted upon others. One other poster has already highlighted the weakness of the case with his comment "..... Caning worked................ We also got bashed with a pump across the backside, no big deal......", I was also caned at school, my only real thought at the time was that I felt a bit sorry for the Deputy Headmaster who had to inflict it (I actually quite liked him as a teacher), I can't say I had any deeper revelation from the experience.

When you look at other retributive punishments around the world, Singapore executes drug dealers, and regularly execute several each year, if it was such a deterrent why would they be doing that? Surely everyone would avoid dealing in drugs altogether and they wouldn't need to execute anyone. Capital Punishment is another non-deterrent to potential murderers, again because it is not their intention to get caught so why would they bother about what the penalty is?  The only people who are deterred by punitive punishments are those who probably would not be committing crime anyway (you and I) as we look at is and say "Oh, I wouldn't want that happening to me".

Looking back at the OP the thing that most of these little yobs were more aware of than anything else was the unlikelihood of actually being caught for anything, that drives criminality more than anything else. Looking at our own minor criminality, are you more likely to drive at excessive speed in your car on an open section of motorway without any speed cameras? or on a section fitted with a whole series of average speed cameras? The penalty is the same for both but I bet that more will do it on the open motorway because the chance of getting caught is minimal.

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2 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

To throw in my 4 penn'orth as one who has also worked in the Criminal Justice arena for over 30 years, all this talk of punitive treatment, caning,national service, etc.etc totally ignores one vital point in the criminal mind; when they commit the act they have no intention of being caught so whatever punishment that you wish to throw at them is largely irrelevant.

So how do you explain the fact that when they hung people for stealing a loaf of bread theft was almost unknown and when caning was allowed children behaved better than they do today?

I taught through the change from caning to no caning (which if I remember correctly was more than 30 years ago) and there was a definite difference in behaviour ..

I am not saying you are wrong I am just interested in how, you with the years of experience can explain things. 

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16 hours ago, bigcol said:

 

it was the fear of being caned stopped me doing a lot of the things that young people do today

 

It was disdain for cowards who thought it okay to assault people half their size that fed my rebellious streak.

My head could have caned me until my fingers fell off and I would have still been staring into his eyes with contempt at his pathetic, sadistic weakness.

Contempt for authority is fed by authority's contempt for those it has a responsibility for.

Discipline at my son's school is ten times better than at my school because the teachers treat the students with respect, not contempt.

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On 12/09/2017 at 18:15, mrsmelly said:

We also got bashed with a pump across the backside, no big deal...

...therefore no real deterrent.

If physically assaulting a child was such an effective deterrent why did it not die out as kids became so well disciplined that it was no longer necessary?

It only disappeared because it was finally accepted that assaulting children was no more acceptable than assaulting adults.

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8 hours ago, Jerra said:

So how do you explain the fact that when they hung people for stealing a loaf of bread theft was almost unknown and when caning was allowed children behaved better than they do today?

I taught through the change from caning to no caning (which if I remember correctly was more than 30 years ago) and there was a definite difference in behaviour ..

I am not saying you are wrong I am just interested in how, you with the years of experience can explain things. 

I can't explain your assertion because I don't think it is true. When they used to publicly hang people for pickpocketting it would normally draw quite a crowd, and in amongst those crowds pickpockets would still be operating, not really much of a deterrent there. Since children have always misbehaved I can't really comment on whether they behaved worse today or when caning was in force. In my own school one of my classmates was caned for throwing a dart into the back of a teacher standing at the blackboard, sounds like pretty bad behaviour to me even when caning was an option (wounding I believe).

The greatest deterrent to poor behaviour is the certainty of being detected, the likelihood is high in small villages where everyone knows everything about each other and minimal in large cities where you may not even know who your neighbour is. The yobs in the OP were city kids.

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Whenever I hear people extol the virtues of beating children into submission (as some of my older relatives do) I suggest they try swapping the word 'women' for 'child'.  Is it acceptable to beat a woman into submission?  No, people get sent to prison for that, so on what planet is it OK to beat a small helpless person?

I also find it ironic that many of the people who seem keenest on beating children and executing some criminals are also those who are most opposed to Sharia law...

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No one has said it's right to beat a woman or child.

children need disaplin, they need rules and boundaries, they need to be educated by the parents, and teachers.

a deterant has to be put in place, other wise there would be anochy for everyone.

a country with none of the above, what will happen to our future offspring.

 

i got caned, slippered at home and at school, I knew if I done wrong and got caught I get punished.

 

I WAS NOT BEATEN! I was punished!

children needs all the above, 

 

other wise well well look around you when your out and about!

Edited by bigcol
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2 hours ago, carlt said:

...therefore no real deterrent.

If physically assaulting a child was such an effective deterrent why did it not die out as kids became so well disciplined that it was no longer necessary?

It only disappeared because it was finally accepted that assaulting children was no more acceptable than assaulting adults.

Ahh out of the mouth of babes and all that. Trust me it was a deterent but in the greater scheme of things now looking back it was no big deal whereas now poor behaviour is generaly rewarded and a pc modern day excuse attributed to it.

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Ahh out of the mouth of babes and all that. Trust me it was a deterent but in the greater scheme of things now looking back it was no big deal whereas now poor behaviour is generaly rewarded and a pc modern day excuse attributed to it.

Mouths of babes? What patronising twaddle.

I am 51 years old and went to a traditional Grammar school which was staffed mainly with sadistic old gits and a few younger teachers who didn't believe in corporal punishment.

Guess who got the most respect from the pupils (a clue...It was the ones who treated kids as human beings to educate, not animals to train).

The pleasure of winding up a nasty aggressive dinosaur who ruled by fear was worth the pain of getting caught so their classes tended to be utter chaos as they ran around the classroom screaming and waving their weapon of choice around.

It was no deterrent at all and, having brought a son up through a modern school whose staff are not allowed to assault the children anymore I am in an excellent position to compare the two systems and the new one wins hands down...Trust me...Babe or not.

Brutalising children is a big deal because it appears to have bred a generation that seem to want to perpetuate the assaults.

Fortunately there is a "younger" generation that followed yours that, with a little luck, will mean the aggressive attitudes will die out along with the dinosaurs that approve of them.

Edited by carlt
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1 hour ago, bigcol said:

 

 

i got caned, slippered at home and at school, I knew if I done wrong and got caught I get punished.

 

I WAS NOT BEATEN! I was punished!

children needs all the above, 

 

If somebody used a weapon to punish you then you were beaten whether you believe it or not and, because it may have scared you into submission, you believe it worked.

I have never laid a hand on my sons, never mind used a weapon on them, and they are both top of their class, well behaved and respect their teachers, classmates and parents.

My eldest may well have been beaten into submission, if he had been assaulted by adults, but my youngest would have, like me, riled against it and despised the sadists who think causing pain and fear is the same thing as commanding respect.

Edited by carlt
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On 10/09/2017 at 19:08, Phil. said:

The reason is because those who claim the problem is down to a lack of things for kids to do, are simply making excuses. The problem is almost entirely down to crap parenting. The real issue is that a small but significant percentage of the adult population are complete turds, but unfortunately they can, and quite often do breed, usually producing more of their brood than the more responsible element of society. 

As devil's advocate, would these be the parents who were brought up being given a cuff round the ear from the local bobby, playing in the streets until it got dark and not telling their parents when they got into trouble at school for fear of a second punishment?

Just asking.

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29 minutes ago, Dyertribe said:

As devil's advocate, would these be the parents who were brought up being given a cuff round the ear from the local bobby, playing in the streets until it got dark and not telling their parents when they got into trouble at school for fear of a second punishment?

Just asking.

No.

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There are so many good reasons not to use physical force in disciplining a child that the apparent arguments for it generally boil down to 'it never did me any harm' 

The hypocrisy of using violence to teach the wrongs of violence, the overwhelming evidence that shows us those who use violence do so without control and the millions and millions of people who grow up well rounded, kind and caring folk who were never beaten, but shown love and guidance instead. 

 

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44 minutes ago, Wanted said:

There are so many good reasons not to use physical force in disciplining a child that the apparent arguments for it generally boil down to 'it never did me any harm' 

The hypocrisy of using violence to teach the wrongs of violence, the overwhelming evidence that shows us those who use violence do so without control and the millions and millions of people who grow up well rounded, kind and caring folk who were never beaten, but shown love and guidance instead. 

 

I agree with much of what you say but there is in reality Violence and VIOLENCE. You and I have both been in jobs at the very sharp end ( I know I have ) when children have been subject to violence. I have personaly dealt with everything from minor bruising through to black eyes caused by a parent to also being the first police officer to a house where a mother had killed both her kids and attempted to kill herself. Caning was not about the physical damage caused it was  a far greater deterrent being embarrassed about the whole ordeal and after its removal absolutely nothing has been introduced to replace it. You will bring your kids up well I have no doubt and I know mine are all first class as they are mature adults now with kids of their own I have never even nearly hit any of my kids but caning is a totally different subject and it worked.

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My post from a long time ago (22) suggested give these children,that is what they are, the chance to go to a scheme where they will be looked after and educated about wrong doing. No bullying and physical harm. Just plain old getting to see the error of their ways. Unless these children do a real criminal crime,why send then to what used to be Borstal. For the same cost,allow them to enjoy a couple of weeks of hard work and disapline.

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2 hours ago, Wanted said:

There are so many good reasons not to use physical force in disciplining a child that the apparent arguments for it generally boil down to 'it never did me any harm'

 

I believe that thinking that an adult committing violence on you as a child "never did any harm" is proof of the harm that it actually did.

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

...but caning is a totally different subject and it worked.

and yet it didn't work.

There was poor discipline in some schools when assaulting a child was legal and there is poor discipline in some schools now that it is outlawed.

The difference is that there is no more adult on child violence which is a good thing.

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i have not read all the posts nor do i want too ..it will only wind me up ..if the police had of been in attendance . all you would have got from them is ..come on lads move along .or you will get nicked ...or you will get nicked ...why not nick them there and then ...in chester only this summer police came to our boat ,,have you seen two young guys running this way red top on blue trainers ...yer there they are over there ..they searched them took what they stole from the shops .and there weed ..and sent them on there way ...in the 70s my brother  got £20 fine 6 weeks in prison ..for the massive crime of having a small joint in is pocket ...its getting worse but can be done .its a way of life now i would say ...

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34 minutes ago, carlt said:

There was poor discipline in some schools when assaulting a child was legal and there is poor discipline in some schools now that it is outlawed.

Can I ask about your experience of discipline in schools then and now?   I don't recognise the situation from my own 40 years experience.  There was indiscipline in schools while caning was permitted true but it wasn't to the level or severity of current times.  Again just my own personal experience.

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

I agree with much of what you say but there is in reality Violence and VIOLENCE. You and I have both been in jobs at the very sharp end ( I know I have ) when children have been subject to violence. I have personaly dealt with everything from minor bruising through to black eyes caused by a parent to also being the first police officer to a house where a mother had killed both her kids and attempted to kill herself. Caning was not about the physical damage caused it was  a far greater deterrent being embarrassed about the whole ordeal and after its removal absolutely nothing has been introduced to replace it. You will bring your kids up well I have no doubt and I know mine are all first class as they are mature adults now with kids of their own I have never even nearly hit any of my kids but caning is a totally different subject and it worked.

As you rightly suggest, I have indeed dealt with the sharp end of adult on child abuse. Almost all of the parents claim they were using force as some kind of behavioural control or that they couldn't cope with their child's behaviour. This abuse ranged from extreme deprevation of liberty to hospitalisation and in one horrific case that we probably all read about, loss of life. 

Now if all of those parents, no matter how wrong, thought they were disciplining their children, what can we assume could and did happen when giving other adults permission to use coperal punishment. There is no measure on how hard an angry geography teacher would hit a child. There is plenty of evidence that states children who are subject to coperal punishment today often end up needing medical care afterwards and some even ending up with longer lasting injury, including psychologically. 

Even if you disagree with my belief that if you feel you need to raise your hand to a child you have lost control, it is impossible to measure both the physical and mental damage that is caused. 

On top of that, there is absolutely no evidence beyond anecdotal to suggest that behaviour actually improves with physical punishment. Conversely there is overwhelming evidence to prove that a non violent approach to behaviour is far more successful. 

I don't see a difference in the violence dished out by abisive parents to that of the state as was. It's just all on a scale of violence towards children. 

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6 minutes ago, Wanted said:

As you rightly suggest, I have indeed dealt with the sharp end of adult on child abuse. Almost all of the parents claim they were using force as some kind of behavioural control or that they couldn't cope with their child's behaviour. This abuse ranged from extreme deprevation of liberty to hospitalisation and in one horrific case that we probably all read about, loss of life. 

Now if all of those parents, no matter how wrong, thought they were disciplining their children, what can we assume could and did happen when giving other adults permission to use coperal punishment. There is no measure on how hard an angry geography teacher would hit a child. There is plenty of evidence that states children who are subject to coperal punishment today often end up needing medical care afterwards and some even ending up with longer lasting injury, including psychologically. 

Even if you disagree with my belief that if you feel you need to raise your hand to a child you have lost control, it is impossible to measure both the physical and mental damage that is caused. 

On top of that, there is absolutely no evidence beyond anecdotal to suggest that behaviour actually improves with physical punishment. Conversely there is overwhelming evidence to prove that a non violent approach to behaviour is far more successful. 

I don't see a difference in the violence dished out by abisive parents to that of the state as was. It's just all on a scale of violence towards children. 

Serious question. How would you deal with Kim Jong-un

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22 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Can I ask about your experience of discipline in schools then and now?   I don't recognise the situation from my own 40 years experience.  There was indiscipline in schools while caning was permitted true but it wasn't to the level or severity of current times.  Again just my own personal experience.

I have outlined my experience at school and have worked in schools since assaulting a child became as illegal as assaulting an adult. 

 

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