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Wrong HIN number advice


HelloHello

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Hi there,

Please help if you can, advice would be gratefully received.  I have an issue with the administration of the HIN number.

I've lived on the waters for almost 9 years and have my beut of a post 1998 build narrowboat, but now looking to sell. Problem being is the brokerage discovered (unknown to me) that the HIN in the paper work is false and when we approached the boat builder he freely admitted that was the case.  

Now I'm being told that one way or another the hull will need to be registered and an HIN number will need to be issued. Can anyone shed some light on this situation, how I should go about it, who to contact and the potential costs of achieving this?

I'm being told I can't sell the boat without one and I'm just looking for 2nd opinions before I proceed.

Thanks in advance!

Edited by HelloHello
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Thanks both for getting back to me.  I agree with you Canal Cuttings that this problem should be rectified by the builder and is a route I'm considering which would probably be leghthy, costly and no doubt court ordered.

Alan, obviously your 5yr estimations is one that is intriguing, problem being even though the paperwork states an HIN number the hull actually never had one issued, would this still fall in line with your theory and do you know of a resource I can refer to or contact?

I'll give CRT a shout any others would be appreciated.

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7 hours ago, HelloHello said:

the HIN in the paper work is false

In what way is it false? Does the manufacturer not have a designator? Or are you saying that the hull isn't stamped?

Either way it doesn't sound like a big deal. 

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On the boat builders note of conformity there's basically a made up HIN number, but there's actually no HIN number assigned to the hull, but when we approached the builder he freely admitted he's been doing it for years (which I find odd).  

Now the brokerage selling my boat informs me that without an official HIN number they can't legally sell it, if an accident were to happen my insurance company wouldn't actually support any issue and apparently I would have to get the boat lifted, surveyed by someone who can actually assign HIN numbers providing the hull, electrics and gas etc are above board and conform to today's standards which excluding any works done would cost around 3K.

The boat is 12 years old and I bought it 5 1/2 years back, but now have a buyer and obviously between a rock and a hard place.

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As the boat is over 5 years old it is no problem to sell it with an incorrect HIN

Trading standards, and  C&RT will have no concerns at all.

It is also not illegal to sell someone an empty box.  If, however, you tell them there is a gold bar in the closed box you're selling, but years later they open it and find nothing, you would be in big trouble!  

The builder's reputation is surely important to him.

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22 minutes ago, HelloHello said:

On the boat builders note of conformity there's basically a made up HIN number, but there's actually no HIN number assigned to the hull, but when we approached the builder he freely admitted he's been doing it for years (which I find odd).  

Now the brokerage selling my boat informs me that without an official HIN number they can't legally sell it, if an accident were to happen my insurance company wouldn't actually support any issue and apparently I would have to get the boat lifted, surveyed by someone who can actually assign HIN numbers providing the hull, electrics and gas etc are above board and conform to today's standards which excluding any works done would cost around 3K.

The boat is 12 years old and I bought it 5 1/2 years back, but now have a buyer and obviously between a rock and a hard place.

How did you not notice when you bought it?

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Because when I bought it there was a letter of conformity with an HIN number, the insurance company signed it off, environmental agency and C&RT licenced it, an historic survey on the records all ticked it all off.

In hindsight yes I should have got my own survey, but the HIN was probably the last thing I thought would have been a question mark on a 7 year old boat.

 

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So what is the problem exactly?

You say there is a HIN number and a certificate of conformity. 

Is the certificate fraudulent? Is there no  HIN number on the boat ? Is there no CE plate on the boat.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, HelloHello said:

Because when I bought it there was a letter of conformity with an HIN number, the insurance company signed it off, environmental agency and C&RT licenced it, an historic survey on the records all ticked it all off.

In hindsight yes I should have got my own survey, but the HIN was probably the last thing I thought would have been a question mark on a 7 year old boat.

 

In the absence of any HIN, how do you know that the boat you bought is the boat you were supposed to have been sold?

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5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

So what is the problem exactly?

You say there is a HIN number and a certificate of conformity. 

Is the certificate fraudulent? Is there no  HIN number on the boat ? Is there no CE plate on the boat.

 

 

Hi Martyn,

Thanks for responding.

Yes to all the above.  The letter of conformity is quite fraudulent and there's no HIN or CE on the boat.

Thank you!

7 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

In the absence of any HIN, how do you know that the boat you bought is the boat you were supposed to have been sold?

Because the boat builder admitted it, but I do understand your point.

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7 minutes ago, HelloHello said:

 

Because the boat builder admitted it, but I do understand your point.

Yes. But if he has done this several times you could have any boat. There is no way of knowing which you have if none of them are sporting a HIN number.

Sounds to be very dodgy practice indeed and certainly needs reporting.

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Do you know the identity of the buyer? If the brokerage won't sell it as is, then you are free to do a deal with the buyer directly (and save yourself the brokerage fee).

I found the buyer, but the mooring belongs to the brokerage so any sell would go through them, plus all the above is quite concerning and I wouldn't want to just pass on the buck now that this has all come to light.

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1 minute ago, HelloHello said:

I found the buyer, but the mooring belongs to the brokerage so any sell would go through them, plus all the above is quite concerning and I wouldn't want to just pass on the buck now that this has all come to light.

We have a clause in our mooring conditions that if we sell the boat from our mooring that they get 1% of the sale price. If we take the boat out of the marina however and 50 yards around the corner onto the pub moorings and sell it, then there is bugger all that they can do.

I do get your point about not selling the boat without the proper ID though. It wouldn't sit well with me either.

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Who issues the HIN?

As far as I can see the builder issues it and should affix it to the hull, so unless this builder is using someone else's code I cannot see how it is "fraudulent". And if he has been doing this for the last 9+ years how come no-one else has had a problem?

Edited by Graham Davis
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surely the best action is to delete the invalid HIN from all the documents and proceed with the sale.

AFAIK it is irrelevant if a boat that is more than 5 years old does not have a valid RCD Declaration of Conformity. There is no requirement for all boats to have a HIN, for example most self-builds including sailaways that were not sold within the first 5 years from completion will not have RCD, CE plate or HIN.

the fraudulent practice of the boatbuilder is another matter and should be dealt with under the law by the Trading Standards Officer of the local authority (local to the builder, that is).

why would a broker refuse to sell a boat that does not carry a HIN, unless he has a genuine suspicion that it was stolen?  If you can prove ownership for the past 5 years it would seem a bit churlish on his part to lose a sale and effectively prevent you from selling your own boat.  .......  or is his brother-in-law an ambulance-chasing lawyer?  

Edited by Murflynn
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12 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

surely the best action is to delete the invalid HIN from all the documents and proceed with the sale.

AFAIK it is irrelevant if a boat that is more than 5 years old does not have a valid RCD Declaration of Conformity. There is no requirement for all boats to have a HIN, for example most self-builds including sailaways that were not sold within the first 5 years from completion will not have RCD, CE plate or HIN.

the fraudulent practice of the boatbuilder is another matter and should be dealt with under the law by the Trading Standards Officer of the local authority (local to the builder, that is).

why would a broker refuse to sell a boat that does not carry a HIN, unless he has a genuine suspicion that it was stolen?  If you can prove ownership for the past 5 years it would seem a bit churlish on his part to lose a sale and effectively prevent you from selling your own boat.  .......  or is his brother-in-law an ambulance-chasing lawyer?  

Hi Murflynn,

Thank you for your in-depth reply it really is appreciated.  Do you have a resource I can reference what you said and/or who in your estimations would be the best people to contact to help me with this?

Thanks in advance?

Regards,

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27 minutes ago, HelloHello said:

Hi Murflynn,

Thank you for your in-depth reply it really is appreciated.  Do you have a resource I can reference what you said and/or who in your estimations would be the best people to contact to help me with this?

Thanks in advance?

Regards,

Post 8 above ?

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Ok so the plot thickens, 

I spoke to my Boat Saefty guy and insurance company which both of which don't deem the HIN number a necessity?

The insurance company would insure the boat without the HIN number as long as the boat can be proved it was professionaly built, the builder trades under a name, has a website and can prove a body of work and they said that would be enough.

My BS guy tells me it's not a required number for smaller boat builders, but isn't something he comes across often.

So my question being is my boat legal, can it be sold and insured the latter being the most important.

All points seem to point to yes which would contradict the brokerage?

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Without a valid HIN number and RCD paperwork you won't be able to export the boat to another EU country, register it on the Small Ships Register or take out a marine mortgage on it. But you (or any future owner) can do pretty much anything else with it. Is that really going to be a problem for a 12 year old boat?

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I too fail to se where any fraud exists. Who hair been defrauded and how much did they lose?

It looks to me as though the only issue is the builder failed to actually mark the HIN he issued on the hull. 

I suggest you buy a set of number and letter punches from eBay (£25-ish) then stamp the HIN written on the RCD documentation yourself onto the hull. 

The broker is making a fuss about nothing, making a lot of false statements and just trying to put the wind up you for no obvious benefit to themselves other than to frustrate your sale. Have they offered to buy it from you themselves (at a much reduced price) possibly?

I have purchased/sold  two boats over the years with missing RCD. Nothing bad happened. 

 

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1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Without a valid HIN number...

But it does have a HIN - it's on all the paperwork. I wonder the same as Graham when he writes:

1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

Who issues the HIN?

As far as I can see the builder issues it and should affix it to the hull, so unless this builder is using someone else's code I cannot see how it is "fraudulent". And if he has been doing this for the last 9+ years how come no-one else has had a problem?

It appears to me that the only thing missing is the two instances of the HIN on the boat, hardly a difficult thing to add. 

Some years ago we bought a kit car that had been built by someone else. One MOT inspector refused to issue the ticket because it had no chassis number. I borrowed some punches from the local fire brigade and punched out the number from the V5 onto an aluminium plate which I then riveted to the chassis. Voilà! Sorted. It now had a chassis number. 

Added to say I note that Mike too has virtually identical thoughts on this. Posted as I was writing/typing/tapping. 

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