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What sort of anchor?


Nick D

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4 minutes ago, Nick D said:

Thanks Alan, I appreciate that anchors for narrowboats on tidal waters are for emergency use only and on the rare occasion that they will be deployed you want to be sure that they work so I would prefer to have the right one rather than one that just stores nicely.  It will only be occasionally that we venture onto tidal waters so can always keep it at home if necessary when we are just out on the cut.  Would you still suggest that 20kg is the right weight?

The weight you need will depend on the anchor design.

A Fortress - you could probably get away with a 9.5kg (Model FX35)

A Manson / Mantus - a 15 kg would be OK

A CQR / Bruce then 20kg

 

If you really must have a Danforth then 30kgs would (maybe) do the job.

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Main snag with a Fortress is the cost. An FX 37 would be about £600 (quick look doesn't find FX35, and it's not listed on the Fortress website, discontinued maybe?)

Gamebird (26') has an FX7, and that holds her pretty well : we spent a night rafted up to another two boats once, and in the morning the FX7 was the only anchor still holding (all 3 boats, us, a GRP cruiser and a steel widebeam!). The "competition", however, wasn't great, consisting of an under sized (IMO) Fisherman and a grapple, again, a bit on the small side.

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9 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Thanks. A bit of Googling found this:

While the Fortress Anchor is almost indistinguishable from the original Danforth to the untrained eye, Fortress Marine has made a number of significant improvements. The Fortress’ fluke angle can be adjusted to match varying bottom conditions, the tripping palms can be modified to assist in setting, and its construction from aluminum-magnesium alloy offers even greater weight savings without sacrificing strength. The Fortress can also be easily disassembled for easy storage 

The Danforth is a reasonably good anchor for use where the river bed is sand, silt or even gravel, but not weed, rock, or rock and seaweed, In general use it is not good as a primary anchor because if the boat is at anchor and circulates around it,  due to wind/current/tide, the chain can catch the anchor and upset it, the Fortress would therefore be more reliable in those circumstances.

I would possibly consider a slightly undersized Danforth if you have to [you need to make sure you can stow the darn thing where you intend to store it], with maybe eight meters of chain to boost the effective weight of the anchor., with thirty meters of anchorplait.  The first attachment of anchor to chain would be a bow shackle [mouse with mondel], and then another shackle [moused], attached to a a fixed eye [spliced], the free [bitter] end being heat sealed and whipped. This arrangement allows you to use the chain , and the warp for other purposes, and separately stow the Danforth. You are always going to have your anchor ready for instant deployment when on the river, but you still have the [expensive] anchorplait for other uses such as mooring up in a storm.

Don't forget to attach the anchorplait to the vessel before deployment.

You can use very light cotton string to keep the anchorplait stored and coiled rather than stored like grannies knitting.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mouse+a+shackle&oq=mouse+a+shackle&aqs=chrome..69i57.7910j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

You will spend serious money for a Fortress which is only marginally better than the Danforth for your purposes. Plus you will probably be able to get a genuine second hand Danforth [just make sure it is a real, branded anchor], and you will have anchor, shackles,  chain and warp for about £350, compared with £900 for the Fortress set up. You can trim costs by purchasing 18mm anchorplaiit warp rather than 20mm, its not so nice to handle but will be plenty strong enough.

Personally, I know I can't cope with a 30kg Danforth, I should be able to handle a 20kg Danforth., you have to be realistic.

Edited by LadyG
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2 hours ago, LadyG said:

Personally, I know I can't cope with a 30kg Danforth, I should be able to handle a 20kg Danforth., you have to be realistic

We have a Danforth on the narrowboat, not sure what size, but the biggest I could find. If it every needs recovering after use it could  be a problem. 

We have two cqr anchors on the sailing boat, an oversized one, and a smaller kedge. 

Edited by rusty69
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1 hour ago, LadyG said:

You will spend serious money for a Fortress which is only marginally better than the Danforth

And your justification for saying this is ?

If there was a gain of truth in what you say, then I am sure that Lloyds would have given the Danforth a rating of  UUHP (Ultra High Holding Power) as the Fortress has, but the Danforth doesn’t even rate on the ‘lowest’ scale.

I’m surprised that the US Navy doesn’t mention the Danforth at all – not even to say “nearly as good” when they say the Fortress is the best / strongest anchor they have tested.

It never ceases to amaze me that folks can pay £30k, £50k, £100k+ for a boat and then baulk at paying £600-700 for the equipment to protect their asset.

It is an insurance – you plan for the worst but hope for the best !

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27 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

We have a Danforth on the narrowboat, not sure what size, but the biggest I could find. If it every needs recovering after use it could  be a problem. 

We have two cqr anchors on the sailing boat, an oversized one, and a smaller kedge. 

My justification is: holding power under storm conditions at sea, I would not contemplate a Danforth of any size, it would not be on any sailing boat of mine.

However we are not talking about sea trials, we are not sitting at anchor on a storm or on a windless day when the baot may circulate and upset the anchor. If the nb is on a river and is heading for the weir, one wants something to stop the forward movement, the anchor will be ready to go, I don't think it matters too much if from bow [eg if singlehanded] or stern [discuss].

You drop the anchor in , pay out chain, [leather gloves] and warp , the boat stops, it may drag along the bottom to some extent, but should grip and dig in. The boat will be stopped, head to the current.

I feel that there always has to be some sort of compromise, I would rather pay £300 for ground tackle if I was only doing a bit of river cruising in calm waters, if I was going to do some really adventurous stuff, then I would gear up accordingly. 

I;d rather spend significantly on a reliable, well serviced engine than significantly on a Fortress.

Edited by LadyG
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2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

My justification is: holding power under storm conditions at sea, I would not contemplate a Danforth of any size, it would not be on any sailing boat of mine.

However we are not talking about sea trials, we are not sitting at anchor on a storm or on a widless day when the baot may circulate and upset the anchor. If the nb is on a river and is heading for the weir, one wants something to stop the forward movement, the anchor will be ready to go, I don't think it matters too much if from bow [eg if singlehanded] or stern [discuss].

You drop the anchor in , pay out chain, [leather gloves] and warp , the boat stops, it may drag along the bottom to some extent, but should grip and dig in. The boat will be stopped, head to the current.

Think you meant to quote @Alan de Enfield

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11 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Think you meant to quote @Alan de Enfield

yep , my kbd is not as reliable as my ground tackle.

On the South Coast, I have occasionally used a Danforth on river anchoring, [mud], and in the Solent [shingly gravel] it seemed OK, we were "practicing". Its an absolute pain to recover from an expensive sailing yacht. I would not sleep soundly in a storm, but it should do the job of stopping the nb.

Edited by LadyG
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23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

And your justification for saying this is ?

If there was a gain of truth in what you say, then I am sure that Lloyds would have given the Danforth a rating of  UUHP (Ultra High Holding Power) as the Fortress has, but the Danforth doesn’t even rate on the ‘lowest’ scale.

I’m surprised that the US Navy doesn’t mention the Danforth at all – not even to say “nearly as good” when they say the Fortress is the best / strongest anchor they have tested.

It never ceases to amaze me that folks can pay £30k, £50k, £100k+ for a boat and then baulk at paying £600-700 for the equipment to protect their asset.

It is an insurance – you plan for the worst but hope for the best !

Same goes for VHF.

Think nothing of as you say spending £100k on a boat but refuse to spend £100 on a vital piece of safety equipment.

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

yep , my kbd is not as reliable as my ground tackle.

On the South Coast, I have occasionally used a Danforth on river anchoring, mud], and in the Solent [shingly gravel] it seemed OK, I would not sleep soundly in a storm, but it should do the job of stopping the nb.

Would you not rather have something that will do the job?

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10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

On the South Coast, I have occasionally used a Danforth on river anchoring, [mud], and in the Solent [shingly gravel] it seemed OK, we were "practicing". Its an absolute pain to recover from an expensive sailing yacht. I would not sleep soundly in a storm, but it should do the job of stopping the nb.

Just a small difference between a  3 or 4 ton yacht and a 15-20ton NB.

The NB takes a lot of stopping

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31 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

 

Would you not rather have something that will do the job?

I don't think there will be much difference between the stop and dig characteristic of the Fortress and the Danforth, the basic design is very similar, the superiority of the Fortress is holding power in a storm, we are not using this as a storm anchor.

If you take your argument to the extreme, you would have to carry a variety of designs to cope with different rivers, and more anchorplait than can fill your welldeck.

Anyway, when I ever get afloat, I will aquire a Danforth, and 10m of chain [I already have 33m of 20mm Anchorplait, two Tested shackles] and leather gauntlets].

A VHF is handy, but is not  going to prevent you going over a weir.

I have never called out the lifeboat in thousands of miles offshore, with and without VHF, though though it is a good safety aid and an essential requirement on some rivers.

You should be self sufficient, there is not  going to be capable assistance exactly when and where you need it unless you happen to be involved in an RNIB training exercise.

Edited by LadyG
RNLI
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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

And an "underwater see scope" so you can inspect the bottom and select a suitable anchor.

The bottom type should be indicated on the chart. You could wait til you have drifted over the appropriate bottom that fits your anchor type before deploying it:)

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7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I don't think there will be much difference between the stop and dig characteristic of the Fortress and the Danforth, the basic design is very similar, the superiority of the Fortress is holding power in a storm, we are not using this as a storm anchor.

If you take your argument to the extreme, you would have to carry a variety of designs to cope with different rivers, and more anchorplait than can fill your welldeck.

Having travelled on a fair few different rivers, estuaries and sections of the coast we have found that our over sized Delta and 8mm chain has coped admirably with the majority of the bottoms conditions we have come across.

The one exception being the shore at Dores on Loch Ness. The bottom wasn't really close enough to the top until we were closer into the beach then we would have liked. We set the anchor, checked she wasn't dragging back onto the beach and went for lunch in the pub, checking on her several times from the beer garden. A couple of hours later with a shift in wind direction she had dragged back a damn sight closer then we would have liked to the beach and the now present breakers made launching the dinghy to get back from the beach interesting.

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5 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Having travelled on a fair few different rivers, estuaries and sections of the coast we have found that our over sized Delta and 8mm chain has coped admirably with the majority of the bottoms conditions we have come across.

 

Our oversized cqr is good in sand and mud, and has never dragged. It tends to bury itself, so can't be seen when it dries out. 

We lost the original through shackle failure (assume) in rough sea, but it didn't drag. 

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19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

And an "underwater see scope" so you can inspect the bottom and select a suitable anchor.

No need Tony: as you progress over the course of the river, you check the charts on your GPS thingy [4G?] , or even buy real paper chart, obviously your crew will not be idle, standing at the bow, swinging the lead, checking the river bottom, and swapping over anchors as you transit from mud to rock, gravel to silt, weed or coral,  , it takes fifteen minutes to get the Fisherman out from its lair,  but  it is carried on every  RNLI lifeboat, so it must be good. You are now ready for most contingencies.

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Our oversized cqr is good in sand and mud, and has never dragged. It tends to bury itself, so can't be seen when it dries out. 

We lost the original through shackle failure (assume) in rough sea, but it didn't drag. 

That is why you need a Certified shackle for anchors and mondel

Edited by LadyG
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3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

That is why you need a Certified shackle for anchors and mondel

Yes, it certainly wasn't adequate. Assumed as it was bigger than the chain it would be ok. Luckily we had a spare anchor onboard, and it was daylight, so no harm done.

Lesson learnt. 

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8 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

we have found that our over sized Delta and 8mm chain has coped admirably with the majority of the bottoms conditions we have come across

Interestingly an anchor review appeared in MBM a while ago :

All tests giving a result out of a possible 5

Danforth                                                              Delta

Setting Ability =                1                                                              2

Holding in Loose soil =    5                                                              3

Holding in Hard soil =      2                                                              2             

Average across various ground = 2                                               3

Robustness =                     1                                                              5

 

Which is why I decided to ‘go for’ the Mantus, which gave the following results

Setting Ability =                5

Holding in Loose soil =    3                                                             

Holding in Hard soil =      5             

Average across various ground = 4                                          

Robustness =                     5

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Interestingly an anchor review appeared in MBM a while ago :

All tests giving a result out of a possible 5

Danforth                                                              Delta

Setting Ability =                1                                                              2

Holding in Loose soil =    5                                                              3

Holding in Hard soil =      2                                                              2             

Average across various ground = 2                                               3

Robustness =                     1                                                              5

 

Which is why I decided to ‘go for’ the Mantus, which gave the following results

Setting Ability =                5

Holding in Loose soil =    3                                                             

Holding in Hard soil =      5             

Average across various ground = 4                                          

Robustness =                     5

Mantus wins then,, though I probably won't be anchoring in a field, so no need to purchase a penetrometer http://www.css.cornell.edu/extension/soil-health/hardness.pdf

Edited by LadyG
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9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

No need Tony: as you progress over the course of the river, you check the charts on your GPS thingy [4G?] , or even buy real paper chart, obviously your crew will not be idle, standing at the bow, swinging the lead, checking the river bottom, and swapping over anchors as you transit from mud to rock, gravel to silt, weed or coral,  , it takes fifteen minutes to get the Fisherman out from its lair,  but  it is carried on every  RNLI lifeboat, so it must be good. You are now ready for most contingencies.

That is why you need a Certified shackle for anchors and mondel

May be proper marine charts are available for the navigable sections of our rivers - the places that canal boats are most likely to need to deploy an anchor, but I have not seen any for the Thames and I know the bottom varies between rock, gravel (most of it), mud, and weedy but I have no idea what's down there in a place I have not been swimming in. Even the OBA Trent charts do not give anything like full information. I also suspect such charts if they exist would no mark all the "holes" in the river bed so any calculation for rode length is likely to be impossible. The EA and Thames Conservancy before them only seem to give maximum navigation draft not actual depths.

I was trying to make a humorous point in support of your statement above what I wrote. Its all very well for seagoing boaters to start quoting chapter and verse about anchoring at sea which I suspect we all  except. The few times i have deployed my 25 Kg Danforth I am sure it only acted like a mud weight and just dragged a bit until the friction between the anchor and river bed stopped the boat. If we follow the logic of much of the argument on here we would all be fitting wing engines, carrying approved life rafts & flares, fitting fire pump systems and so on.

I also suspect that if an anchor on a narrowboat did set properly many boaters would not be strong enough to recover it, even if they did know how to motor over it to break it out so to a degree the anchor needs to be viewed as an expendable item.

A bit of sensible risk assessment and pragmatism is needed here.

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19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

May be proper marine charts are available for the navigable sections of our rivers - the places that canal boats are most likely to need to deploy an anchor, but I have not seen any for the Thames and I know the bottom varies between rock, gravel (most of it), mud, and weedy but I have no idea what's down there in a place I have not been swimming in. Even the OBA Trent charts do not give anything like full information. I also suspect such charts if they exist would no mark all the "holes" in the river bed so any calculation for rode length is likely to be impossible. The EA and Thames Conservancy before them only seem to give maximum navigation draft not actual depths.

I was trying to make a humorous point in support of your statement above what I wrote. Its all very well for seagoing boaters to start quoting chapter and verse about anchoring at sea which I suspect we all  except. The few times i have deployed my 25 Kg Danforth I am sure it only acted like a mud weight and just dragged a bit until the friction between the anchor and river bed stopped the boat. If we follow the logic of much of the argument on here we would all be fitting wing engines, carrying approved life rafts & flares, fitting fire pump systems and so on.

I also suspect that if an anchor on a narrowboat did set properly many boaters would not be strong enough to recover it, even if they did know how to motor over it to break it out so to a degree the anchor needs to be viewed as an expendable item.

A bit of sensible risk assessment and pragmatism is needed here.

yes, sry I was tongue in cheek, as I recognised you were ................

Be careful what you wish for ........... its only a few years since we were a drone free society, a generation ago policemen were 6 foot tall and respected, and in the 19th Century, opium was a super stimulant to trade in the Far East.

Could anyone expending £600 worth of ground tackle please attach an orange fender to the bitter end, and send me the GPS location, ty.

Seriously,  it would be most unwise to let go your one and only anchor, in the hope that the engine would now fire up and get you out of the trouble it had presumably got you in to: time to phone 999 and ask for the Coastguard. 

Edited by LadyG
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