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Electric set up advice


Peppers

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5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have just seen the OP was on about these toilets in another thread. If I had realised that before I would not have got involved. It looks too much like yet another I want a floating cottage without making adjustments type scenario to me.

Well, why not? That's what's happening nowadays. Not everybody wants to wear a hair shirt and at least the OP is looking at the 'overheads' of his lifestyle before going too far.

With the huge disparity in suggestions thus far I wouldn't be surprised if he either runs away screaming or just stops posting. Both would be a shame as the various discussions have been 'Quite Interesting'. The latest - gas-heated-bog may well be a turning point, or at least time to calm down and take a deep breath.

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Sorry I can't go through it all but we have a bread maker and make bread every 3 days. the heat cycle is only about an hour and then its not on full wack all the time. The longest time of the cycle is proving and mixing, the mixing bit is probably not more than 10 minutes. The load during this time is not that great.

 

I've got a breadmaker at home but not on the boat (45') as it takes up too much space. Additionally I have a very small domestic battery bank and want to keep electric needs to a minimum.

My solution has been to make bread using a "no knead" method. Tons of info, recipes, videos etc online.

It has worked so well for me that my breadmaker has been unused at home for about a year as I now do the same there as well. It takes so little effort. You can even mix the ingredients (with reduced yeast or sourdough starter) before bed, which takes 5 minutes, then transfer to a tin in the morning for final proofing before baking. I do this before setting off cruising, or even in time for breakfast depending how long after getting up you want to eat.

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So the main points to remember after all this mix of good advice is

ITS NOT A FLAT ( wether you like that one or not it happens to be a fact )

You can get cheap sealed batteries, I use them they last me 2 plus years full time off grid liveaboard and I NEVER visit them after fitting till they are removed and binned.

You can completely cover a widebeam roof with solar and on a rainy day in January it wont even run your fridge so forget anything else from it. In summer solar is fab.

The BEST way to generate mains power is a stand alone gennie

A Travelpower is also excellent ( I have had one on two different boats as a full time liveaboard )

You will end up compromising somewhere as canal boats wide or otherwise are a compromise somewhere.

Whatever you spec you will wish you had done it a little differently after your first ten years or so living aboard full time.

And last but not least the best bit of advice I can give anyone is.............It WILL cost you more whatever you decide on than you first think it will.

I still adore living aboard :D

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I do find it sad to hear people's responses to my requests for help when I mention something that might not be what you necessarily understand or know. I've never said I want a floating cottage, but I do want to do all the things my work and life requires me to do. I'm new here and I'm learning. 

Clearly many of my calculations are wrong. This is tricky for me, but I've been nice on here, apologised a lot and tried hard.

This site can be a brilliant resource for advice but I feel genuinely worried about what replies I'll get on here should I say the "wrong" thing. It's made me terrified of how we'll be received when we're on the water and I'm sure that's not the environment any of you wish to convey about your community.

I hope that when me and my boyfriend finally are on the water we might meet some of you and be able to invite you in for a cuppa and to maybe use our gas powered loo ;)

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16 minutes ago, Peppers said:

I do find it sad to hear people's responses to my requests for help when I mention something that might not be what you necessarily understand or know. I've never said I want a floating cottage, but I do want to do all the things my work and life requires me to do. I'm new here and I'm learning. 

Clearly many of my calculations are wrong. This is tricky for me, but I've been nice on here, apologised a lot and tried hard.

This site can be a brilliant resource for advice but I feel genuinely worried about what replies I'll get on here should I say the "wrong" thing. It's made me terrified of how we'll be received when we're on the water and I'm sure that's not the environment any of you wish to convey about your community.

I hope that when me and my boyfriend finally are on the water we might meet some of you and be able to invite you in for a cuppa and to maybe use our gas powered loo ;)

Just remember it IS a contact sport so I for one don't care if you make a mistake as a newbie and scrape my blacking lifes too short and EVERY boater has made and still makes mistakes though some do not admit it.

Being teetotal is simply wrong so don't trust in any non drinkers.

Widebeams are nicer than narrowboats but cant go on narrow canals or else we would all have one.

Oh yes and never trust a skinny cook :D

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17 minutes ago, Peppers said:

I do find it sad to hear people's responses to my requests for help when I mention something that might not be what you necessarily understand or know

Just ignore the Luddites, they mean well but struggle to get it across sympathetically ;)

Do however pick up on the very valid points that crop up - like a new gas cylinder weekly if you stick to your idea of an incinerator toilet. I seem to recall that in the recent thread about that concept there was a pretty unanimous response of "Don't do it" yet it appears that you're going to ignore that advice. 

The usage, generation and saving of electrical energy is a complex subject and you WILL take a while to grasp the complexities (particularly with the seemingly poor advice that you're receiving from your electrician). However, you WILL grasp the fundamentals in time. Keep asking questions and ignore the rude posters :)

And like the advice above, never trust a thin chef. 

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2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I think that is a very important point

And hereby lies the problem. The electrician in many cases has never even been onboard never mind worked on or heaven fobid lived on a boat so their advise is less than useless. It reminds me of once around twenty years ago when I was looking for a new boat and went to a builder who proffesed to specialise in " Liveaboard " narrowboats and he was giving all kinds of advice re kit needed onboard etc. I was talking with him and asked how long he had lived aboard in the general conversation and he gave me a blank look before mentioning he lived in a house and always had but quickly again started telling me what live aboards needed :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, Peppers said:

I do find it sad to hear people's responses to my requests for help when I mention something that might not be what you necessarily understand or know. I've never said I want a floating cottage, but I do want to do all the things my work and life requires me to do. I'm new here and I'm learning. 

Clearly many of my calculations are wrong. This is tricky for me, but I've been nice on here, apologised a lot and tried hard.

This site can be a brilliant resource for advice but I feel genuinely worried about what replies I'll get on here should I say the "wrong" thing. It's made me terrified of how we'll be received when we're on the water and I'm sure that's not the environment any of you wish to convey about your community.

I hope that when me and my boyfriend finally are on the water we might meet some of you and be able to invite you in for a cuppa and to maybe use our gas powered loo ;)

As you say - this site IS a brilliant place for advice . Try to think of where else u might get such well meant , honest & generous information ? No one on this forum is trying to sell you anything, whereas you have an electrician who seems not entirely trustworthy & someone looking to take 5K off you tor a toilet . Who do you think is more likely to be impartial. 

Its s clear you are unhappy about the suggestion you want a floating flat or cottage . But that IS what you want is it not ? 

My suggestion was to consider cutting back power consumption as a way of assisting your power management. Well , this is clearly an unwelcome suggestion despite it being a very relevant way of managing your seemingly endless " wants " . 

Some will criticize choices . Folk are making very very valid points about your chosen toilet . It IS going to cause you a great deal of hassle for all the reasons mentioned above . The cost is a joke . 

But a diesel generator that WILL go a long long way to enabling you to power all tje gadgets your life cannot function without is too expensive . 

5 K for a glorified pisspot or 7 - 10 K for a marine generator that will be worth its weight in gold to you - i 'd suggest that it isnt rocket science to see which is more useful . You can get a boat toilet for £50 - £1000 job done & use the rest of the savings for tje genny .

People on the forum who are miles more knowledgeable tjan me are advising you to do some serious rethinking before you make costly mistakes .. but it isnt what you wanna hear is it ? , which is a shame but they are giving freely thier knowledge built up over many years . You should heed it because you re not likely to find better advice elsewhere 

No one is being rude , mean , obstructive etc . It would be lovely wouldn t it if everyone just said " yeah yeah of course you can , have what you want - it ' ll be a doddle " BUT it wouldn t be honest would it . 

If you ask for help or advice then you have to be prepared to accept the answers even if theyre unwelcome . 

You should keep posting . You shouldn t worry about what folk might reply but don t expect anything but honesty . 

cheers 

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I think that part of the 'perception' of 'bluntness / abruptness' could well be the media that we are using.

Certainly, I tend to use short sentences and or bullet points rather than long rambling paragraphs, primarily because I always had secretaries to type for me and only since I took early retirement have I learned to 2-finger type (very slowly and with some difficulty as someone moves the position of keys everyday, this forum takes great delight in inventing words I did not type, and, the keyboard keys are  bit 'sticky' a often need 2 or 3 hts t ork. (see what I mean)

I you really want to learn then stay 'on site', if you want someone to say what wonderful plan you have then you should may be look elsewhere.

Only you can decide if you want help or not.

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The reason my last post was as it was is simply because we have been here before and before and ----------------------- and so on. One gets very fed up with repeating one's self. Especially as I have asked for the raw data put into the the power audit and where it came from.

The OP seemed to accept that a generator would be needed but said they had to save up. Well while that saving up process is going on each winter the batteries will almost certainly be ruined and another set ruined and so on.

On a more positive note now we know the bread maker will only be used occasionally and presumably before a course starts a 175 amp alternator  will more than cover the power requirement so AS LONG AS THE OP RUNS THE ENGINE at a reasonable speed while it is on  it can be ignore in power audit. That is providing it does not eat into any calculated battery charging time. That's knocked 100 Ah off the power audit.

If I am wrong about the speakers being the RMS/PMP music power then substituting them for a lower powered HiFI amp and  quality speakers should save some electricity consumption yet maintain the fidelity the composer needs. This is the sort of compromise that might be needed.

It is all perfectly possible for much of the summer months. Its all but impossible without a generator or Travelpower during the winter. How to make it possible? Cut down on consumption or shell out for a Travel power or generator. A Travel power is run by the main engine so is likely to be noisier which is not what I would think the composer wants.

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Travel Power vs on board generator my personal experience

We had a travel power unit on our narrowboat which we owned for 8 years. (we only lived on board for 6 months) Ours was a 7KW unit. They are a great solution if space/funding is limited. They do require the user to set an appropriate engine speed as load increases, so as we were about to for example put on microwave I would stand ready to increase revs as load increased so as to keep the "OK" LED green. They require the main engine to run so are quite noisy unless engine has hospital silencer and appropriate engine bay sound suppression and of coarse increase running hours. The TP alternator runs even if not in service so bearings etc have same running hours as the main engine (I used to take the drive belt off when we were not using it but suspect others wouldn't bother to do this). The black or silver box is difficult to fault find if things go wrong. Having said that in our eight years we only had to send ours once for new bearings and refurb etc to Cox's. Great bit of kit but understand its limitations.

We have a purpose built marine generator on our current boat which we live aboard and have done for three years. Ours is manual start as many people prefer. The unit is housed in a sound suppressing box and is very quiet in operation (not silent but quiet). There is no need for manual throttle intervention as loads increase. They are usually raw water cooled and this can create some noise, however ours is unusual with keel cooling. They are available in 3000rpm or 1500rpm with the 4 pole 1500rpm being probably the quietest. Ours being 14KVA can power all our onboard requirements and we love it. Downsides are, an additional engine to service and maintain, some electronic equipment don't like "noisy" generator output (but we haven't had any issues,) and of coarse initial outlay and installation. 

 

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I've heard people talk of composting toilets here but have never looked into them in any detail - I have no idea of the benefits, either in terms of convenience, or environmental friendliness, or anything else. I've got a Thetford Cassette toilet with 3 cassettes so, in theory, should never get caught short :) I spend 3 or 4 nights a week on board, and attend to the toilet situation every couple of weeks

My biggest concern, on a day to day basis, is power generation, in that I have to think about it every single day, and do something about every day, or every other day.

If I had a few thousand pounds to spend on either my toileting facilities, or my power generation facilities, it would be a no brainer - power every time.

Having heard the cost of a composting toilet being bandied about, (presumably a Flame Toilet?? @ £5,000 fitted, plus loads of gas and some electricity???), it would not even enter the equation.

I could go on but, even with the best ideals in the world, £5k for a toilet is an idea from a different planet, and I cannot imagine why anyone would even be considering one??

All the other stuff - breadmaker, coffee machine, laptops, TV, Mobile Broadband, Microwave, etc. etc., all make some kind of sense but,    ...........

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Those speaker figures are still worrying me so I did a bit of delving.

I found a Mackie 500W RMS (1000W peak) powered speaker and as usual the technical specs gave no AC input data but by blowing up the image on a PDF it clearly showed the mains input label at 160 watts maximum.

I also found a source that suggested an amplifiers consumption was about 1/8th of its music output.

If we take this pair of speakers to be 160 watt input at 240 volts AC the 12V input (via the inverter) would be about 16 amps each. That's 32 amps in total.

2 hours at 32 amps = 64 Ah, not the 96 Ah as shown on the power audit (dividing by 10 to allow for inverter inefficiencies) so that's another 32 Ah saved on the power audit.

In fact I strongly suspect that 160 watts only applies at maximum volume and during the music peaks so on average it would be less, in the confined space inside a boat I suspect a lot less otherwise the owner would be deaf.

I think it may be a good idea if the OP invested in a plug in Watt meter and actually measured how much the equipment actually demands when in use over several hours. It may save some money on batteries. Take the bread maker out (see earlier reply) and now this (if its correct) and it has saved the equivalent of 2 x 110 Ah batteries.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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On 9/1/2017 at 14:40, WotEver said:

Why do you say this? In my opinion they are the perfect pairing. With the two of them you can...

  • Know when to start charging (or at least, stop discharging). 
  • Know when you can stop charging. 
  • Accurately measure the battery capacity. 

You can't easily do all 3 with anything else without a lot of experience and, in the case of the third item, a lot of time. 

+1 i use a smartguage and a BMV 702 for the above reasons and they work together brilliantly 

Rick

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Putting the toilet thing to one side (as I've said before I'm still researching this so it isn't definite yet, I just wanted to understand the calculations and learn more about something that sounded interesting. It also isn't £5k, and nor is it electric powered...but anyway...) - I will 100% follow the helpful advice of seeking out a diesel generator. I have been trying to look up reviews (on here and elsewhere) of the Northern Lights M673LD3 and the Paguro 4000 (if only because these are the only ones I've been able to find anything about) but information is still pretty sparse for a beginner. Am I looking at the right sort of thing?

And re. speakers @Tony Brooks, I think you're totally right. My other half seems to think his speakers would come in at about 72ah which seems much closer to what you've said, however he did then mention that he also needs studio monitors (as in not screens) so I gave up and told him he could work out the flipping audit.  

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2 minutes ago, Peppers said:

I gave up and told him he could work out the flipping audit.  

Good idea but he'll still be guessing ;)

I suggest you follow TonyB's advice to go out and buy a wattmeter. They're pretty cheap and you can get one on Amazon, Ebay, Maplins etc. Your partner can then plug all his toys (pc, synth, processors, amps, speakers etc) via the meter. Use them for say a week, divide by 7 and he has a typical daily usage. Divide the power by 10 to convert to Ah taken from a battery bank. 

Tony

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3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Good idea but he'll still be guessing ;)

I suggest you follow TonyB's advice to go out and buy a wattmeter.

Yes - had meant to say I did also suggest this to him (and if I'm honest took credit for it as my own brilliant idea), but thanks Tony (and Tony).

Edited by Peppers
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1 hour ago, Peppers said:

Putting the toilet thing to one side (as I've said before I'm still researching this so it isn't definite yet, I just wanted to understand the calculations and learn more about something that sounded interesting. It also isn't £5k, and nor is it electric powered...but anyway...) - I will 100% follow the helpful advice of seeking out a diesel generator. I have been trying to look up reviews (on here and elsewhere) of the Northern Lights M673LD3 and the Paguro 4000 (if only because these are the only ones I've been able to find anything about) but information is still pretty sparse for a beginner. Am I looking at the right sort of thing?

And re. speakers @Tony Brooks, I think you're totally right. My other half seems to think his speakers would come in at about 72ah which seems much closer to what you've said, however he did then mention that he also needs studio monitors (as in not screens) so I gave up and told him he could work out the flipping audit.  

Have a read of this:

https://www.victronenergy.com/generatortest

Click on:

Generator Test Report

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8 hours ago, Peppers said:

Paguro 4000 (if only because these are the only ones I've been able to find anything about) but information is still pretty sparse for a beginner. Am I looking at the right sort of thing?

Yes.

But don't forget to add in the (approx.) £1000 for the installation kit, + the cost of lifting the boat out (to drill holes thru the hull) an the cost of labour / installation.

A competent DIYer could do it, but you need to connect new pipes into your diesel tank & run fuel pipes from your tank to the generator, drill holes thru the hull (below the water line for any water cooled models), & wire 220v cabling into your existing system / RCD / Fusebox

The (small) Paguro may cost around £4000 but you will find that the 'installed price' will be nearer £6000.

As I mentioned in another thread, the Paguro are OK but not the best, Try "Fischer Panda" in your search. The base generators are about £1000 more expensive (fitting costs similar) but they are a better option.

https://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/marine_ac_generators_home.html

 

The 'cheaper' marine generators are running at 3000rpm - in an ideal world you would want to purchase on of the 'very quiet' ones that run at 1500rpm but in the real world (unless you can find a second hand one) weight, size and COST will generally rule them out.

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On 02/09/2017 at 17:33, Lily Rose said:

I've got a breadmaker at home but not on the boat (45') as it takes up too much space. Additionally I have a very small domestic battery bank and want to keep electric needs to a minimum.

My solution has been to make bread using a "no knead" method. Tons of info, recipes, videos etc online.

It has worked so well for me that my breadmaker has been unused at home for about a year as I now do the same there as well. It takes so little effort. You can even mix the ingredients (with reduced yeast or sourdough starter) before bed, which takes 5 minutes, then transfer to a tin in the morning for final proofing before baking. I do this before setting off cruising, or even in time for breakfast depending how long after getting up you want to eat.

This is the sort of thinking you need for boat living. Finding ways to get the things you want while using the minimum electrical power and gas. I make my own bread, but more conventionally. An electric bread maker uses power to knead the dough, then more to heat it to 40C or so to get the dough to rise, then a lot more for the higher temperature to bake. I use an electric mixer, 300W or so for 5 minutes to knead the dough, similar to a bread maker, then stick it in the cupboard above the calorifier to rise (nice and warm and free!). The calorifier is in the cabin, rather than beside the engine on my boat. Depending on the temperature it usually rises in one to two hours. Then in to the oven for baking (gas cylinder every three to four months).

Jen

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8 hours ago, Jon12345 said:

Have a read of this:

https://www.victronenergy.com/generatortest

Click on:

Generator Test Report

Interesting read. For about 20 years of my career I was a project manager in the critical power industry, where I attended factory and site tests for a lot of power and cooling equipment, generators, UPSs, dc power plant, batteries, fridge plant, etc.

The tests on these generators are not as onerous as the ones I witnessed, but then this is "domestic" generating equipment, not commercial.

Certainly with such poor longevity, voltage & frequency control and such high harmonic levels they would never be considered for a commercial application.

Nevertheless they pretty much show that you get what you pay for.

I would have liked to have seen at what distance from the genset the noise readings were taken and voltage and frequency traces for specific step load changes (0-25%, 25-50%, 50-75%,75-100%100%-0%, 75%-50%, 50%-25%) as these give a much better idea of voltage & frequency regulation.

I would also like to have seen voltage and frequency traces of the maximum load acceptance for each generator.

Finally, the cost per kVA is higher than a similarly rated commercial generator of the same rating, which wont include any noise attenuation, as they are designed to go into bespoke rooms or containers, where this will be fitted.

Makes me wonder how much a commercial genset supplier would charge to build one into a new boat (assuming they would be interested in the first place). 

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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 .......

But don't forget to add in the (approx.) £1000 for the installation kit, + the cost of lifting the boat out (to drill holes thru the hull) an the cost of labour / installation.

 ..........

 

 

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

Interesting read. For about 20 years of my career I was a project manager in the critical power industry, where I attended factory and site tests for a lot of power and cooling equipment, generators, UPSs, dc power plant, batteries, fridge plant, etc.

 

Certainly with such poor longevity, voltage & frequency control and such high harmonic levels they would never be considered for a commercial application.

 ............

Makes me wonder how much a commercial genset supplier would charge to build one into a new boat (assuming they would be interested in the first place). 

 

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

This is the sort of thinking you need for boat living. Finding ways to get the things you want while using the minimum electrical power and gas. I make my own bread, but more conventionally. An electric bread maker uses power to knead the dough, then more to heat it to 40C or so to get the dough to rise, then a lot more for the higher temperature to bake. I use an electric mixer, 300W or so for 5 minutes to knead the dough, similar to a bread maker, then stick it in the cupboard above the calorifier to rise (nice and warm and free!). The calorifier is in the cabin, rather than beside the engine on my boat. Depending on the temperature it usually rises in one to two hours. Then in to the oven for baking (gas cylinder every three to four months).

Jen

The two above threads prompt me to   interject and say "What about a Travel Power". Tim made a fleeting reference to one earlier in this thread. Advantages are:-

  • No separate fuel supply (it's bolted to the engine)
  • No extra holes in the boat
  • Doesn't take a huge amount of space (not that's a consideration here)
  • Less cost than a separate generator
  • Quieter than a 3,000 rpm genset (If you want it really quiet, then have the engine set up as a fresh water / heat exchanger cooled engine)
  • The output is via an 'special' inverter so the output and frequency control is more stable - needed if a good quality sound system is fitted.. While on that subject it might be sensible to calculate exactly how much sound power is needed. The boat is smaller than most land based rooms and the walls are more reflective (fewer 'decorations') If you have gigawatts of power for your enjoyment, it won't be popular with your neighbours in a marina or on the cut - sound travels well on the water. I found a 50w (RMS) system quite adequate 
  • If a TP it's worth considering running the high powered appliances with the engine running - which means  you could have a smaller inverter - but that might be a step too far.

Not many boats are heat exchanger cooled but mine is - based on several years of hiring from Teddesley Boat Co whose fleet was so cooled and beautifully quiet. However you do need a proper 'mud box' and NOT a feeble 1" pipe fitted into the swim.

Edited by OldGoat
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Once we know the results of a true audit then a TP might well be all they need, until then we're guessing. Based on the original audit figures they'd have their main engine running 12 hours a day if all they had was a TP. 

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