Why is it so hard to buy diesel?

[MtB]

(Still have a gunwale filler though, lol!)

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

(Still have a gunwale filler though, lol!)

Yeabut that's the point, gunnel fillers are a good thing provided they are on the correct (ie both) side(s).

[stagedamager]

Langley Mill Boatyard charge 80p per Litre domestic rate, because we have to make money. We know it's not the cheapest, but it doesn't make us much as we don't have the biggest tank so can't attract lower wholesale rates. We also do pump outs at £12, we don't include blue at that price. As a re-growing business, at the dead end of an 11 mile canal we have to price realistically, and we refuse to rip people off and use the "service station" principle. We won't imply a split on fuel, will fill either side of your boat, and will also serve with a smile, welcoming attitude, provide a thorough service and be transparent with costs throughout. It's difficult providing services with such small margins, but we see no difference between a pump out, blacking or major repair and treat all customers with the same respect. We look forward to welcoming you all to the only working boatyard on the southern Cromford Canal,  Many have visited over the past 2 weeks on their way to the IWA festival of Water, and the Erewash has never been so popular, but there's still no queues at locks!!

 

Dan

[matty40s]

52 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You can't. He's dead.

Who killed the butler?

Windlass in the pump out shed ....??

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, stagedamager said:

Langley Mill Boatyard charge 80p per Litre domestic rate, because we have to make money. We know it's not the cheapest, but it doesn't make us much as we don't have the biggest tank so can't attract lower wholesale rates. We also do pump outs at £12, we don't include blue at that price. As a re-growing business, at the dead end of an 11 mile canal we have to price realistically, and we refuse to rip people off and use the "service station" principle. We won't imply a split on fuel, will fill either side of your boat, and will also serve with a smile, welcoming attitude, provide a thorough service and be transparent with costs throughout. It's difficult providing services with such small margins, but we see no difference between a pump out, blacking or major repair and treat all customers with the same respect. We look forward to welcoming you all to the only working boatyard on the southern Cromford Canal,  Many have visited over the past 2 weeks on their way to the IWA festival of Water, and the Erewash has never been so popular, but there's still no queues at locks!!

 

Dan

Well good on you for all that. <non-sarcastic point>

Now just sort out the shallow weed-strewn route to your boatyard! <sarcastic point>

[alan_fincher]

5 hours ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

Surely you must be aware that in almost all cases anyone who needs less than that effectively has a full tank and would be well advised to use up more of what they have anyway.

Strange conclusion, I would say.

By calculation our tanks on each of our boats hold between 550 and 600 litres, although there is some ambiguity about how much of that can never be drawn off by the engine.

If I'm out and about, and running low, I need fuel, but unless I'm feeling very flush, am unlikely to put in a big fill at somewhere that is charging significantly more than I am used to paying.

I have bought quite a few things over the years in your well stocked chandlery, (or somebody from Brinklow Boat Services has bought them from you on my behalf - not necessarily "stock" parts, for which, incidentally, I'm most grateful!).

However I will openly admit that when I knew I needed Diesel, (I think on a trip to Birmingham), I bought enough from you to get me there and back to base with sufficient margin.  Possibly (I don't recall exactly) this was only about one tenth of what the tanks could hold, but I certainly wasn't buying the bit that filled them from 90% full to 100% full.

I accept I am just one case - you may find me an unusual one, I don't know.

 

[stagedamager]

We can only try....... Come up to the ECPDA rally at Langley Mill next May, no weed in May!!

If however, you require a weed clearing service, i'm sure we could provide something....

 

Dan

[Rose Narrowboats]

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

Strange conclusion, I would say.

By calculation our tanks on each of our boats hold between 550 and 600 litres, although there is some ambiguity about how much of that can never be drawn off by the engine.

If I'm out and about, and running low, I need fuel, but unless I'm feeling very flush, am unlikely to put in a big fill at somewhere that is charging significantly more than I am used to paying.

I have bought quite a few things over the years in your well stocked chandlery, (or somebody from Brinklow Boat Services has bought them from you on my behalf - not necessarily "stock" parts, for which, incidentally, I'm most grateful!).

However I will openly admit that when I knew I needed Diesel, (I think on a trip to Birmingham), I bought enough from you to get me there and back to base with sufficient margin.  Possibly (I don't recall exactly) this was only about one tenth of what the tanks could hold, but I certainly wasn't buying the bit that filled them from 90% full to 100% full.

I accept I am just one case - you may find me an unusual one, I don't know.

 

Thank you for your kind words. By definition you are different to our usual customers - Yarwoods owners don't form the majority of boats on the cut, though we 'll both agree they should and a modern boat tank usually holds 150-200 litres.

We don't mind which bit of the tank we fill, so long as it covers the cost of doing it. Typical owners of modern "marina" boats in our experience like to keep their tanks brimmed full, so the usual instruction is a cheery and confident "Fill her up please" quite often followed by a surprised look when we take the cap off and the diesel level is only just below it. I think many people have no concept of how little a boat engine uses (and how big the tank is) per hour vs how much fuel they'd use in their car if they drove it all day every day for a week.

We were also seeing a rise in people stopping and saying "Can you put a tenner's worth in, mate?" and at the point we decided we had to bring in a minimum quantity stipulation our average sale into a boat fallen to below 30 litres.

[peterboat]

I am so glad I have my own diesel tank life is easier that way and most of my diesel is for heating/generating

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

We don't mind which bit of the tank we fill, so long as it covers the cost of doing it.

Thank you for the response.  Yes, I know I'm not typical, but if I had been on my way to Brum with my former more typical boat, I would probably only have put in what I knew I needed, not filled the tank, so it's not entirely a "working boat" thing.

You are clearly a sound long established business that needs to make sensible decisions about how you operate, and I'm sure you think these things through carefully.  I would however echo those who have said that a stop for fuel generally results in quite a few more purchases being made that otherwise would not have been.  I don't stop for fuel if I think unreasonable constraints are being placed on how I buy it, so that's other potential sales lost.  Also, if I consider the price high, (whatever the retailers justification is for setting that price), I tend to cover only immediate needs.  If the price is a good one, then I may put several hundred litres in my near 600 litre tanks, even if I only stop with just the one boat - I have even been known to fill two at once, but you'll tell me that is an even bigger rarity!

[Boat&Bikes]

4 hours ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

I wouldn't walk past £12 either. On the other hand, if there was a £20 note on the other side of the street and you didn't have time to get both....

A lot of it comes down to economies of scale:  When we bought the business in 2006 it had a staff of nearly twice what it had now, and was heading for a cliff edge. I ignored the advice of two accountants and several other eminently qualified people who all said don't touch it with the proverbial pole and we got it straightened out just in time to endure the recession - whoopee.

To become more efficient we had to change the priorities. I had (and still have) an excellent painter who was "wasting" half his week on hire boat turnrounds, so I sent him packing back into his shed where he was much happier, but he was the exception as the way forward for the rest of the business was to employ fewer people over time and make better use of the ones who were multi-skilled (and I mean skilled, not jack of all trades) and able to work on their own initiative, and anyone new who has come in has to meet that criteria. What this means now the chandlery no longer justifies full time staff is that the person who ends up doing the pump out (which could equally well be me) would almost certainly be earning the company more by doing something else.

Locally you can earn £15/hr doing agency warehouse work, so it's a lot harder than it sounds to recruit someone on minimum wage to sweep up and mow a bit of grass until the next boat turns up - and I'm still searching for the holy grail of that productive task that can be done at random between pump out and diesel sales!

£15 per hour? Really??

[Rose Narrowboats]

15 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Thank you for the response.  Yes, I know I'm not typical, but if I had been on my way to Brum with my former more typical boat, I would probably only have put in what I knew I needed, not filled the tank, so it's not entirely a "working boat" thing.

You are clearly a sound long established business that needs to make sensible decisions about how you operate, and I'm sure you think these things through carefully.  I would however echo those who have said that a stop for fuel generally results in quite a few more purchases being made that otherwise would not have been.  I don't stop for fuel if I think unreasonable constraints are being placed on how I buy it, so that's other potential sales lost.  Also, if I consider the price high, (whatever the retailers justification is for setting that price), I tend to cover only immediate needs.  If the price is a good one, then I may put several hundred litres in my near 600 litre tanks, even if I only stop with just the one boat - I have even been known to fill two at once, but you'll tell me that is an even bigger rarity!

We experimented with the "loss leader" route and proved two things. Unsurprisingly, if the boat owner had far more diesel in the tank than they thought, no matter how cheap it was, they couldn't buy more of it.

The argument that it generated additional sales in the chandlery was also made (largely by me), and we were all surprised when we analysed the sales figures. Actually very few people made additional purchases - that really surprised me, and I'm convinced had we done it prior to the 2008 recession the results would have been different, but people are far more cautious and less likely to impulse buy these days. The few who did buy large volumes were also the ones more likely to buy extras though, but they were few and far between.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Rose Narrowboats

[Rose Narrowboats]

1 minute ago, ianali said:

£15 per hour? Really??

Yep - accurate as per last week. The standard joke at tea break always used to be that we were all going to quit and get jobs stacking shelves at Tescos 'cos the pay and conditions were better, but we've raised our sights now!

[Boat&Bikes]

4 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

Yep - accurate as per last week. The standard joke at tea break always used to be that we were all going to quit and get jobs stacking shelves at Tescos 'cos the pay and conditions were better, but we've raised our sights now!

That suprised me. My kids did various agency warehouse jobs only 2 years ago, as did many of their friends and don't think any earned as much as even a tenner an hour. Double the minimum wage net of agency fees is pretty good. 

[Rose Narrowboats]

10 minutes ago, ianali said:

That suprised me. My kids did various agency warehouse jobs only 2 years ago, as did many of their friends and don't think any earned as much as even a tenner an hour. Double the minimum wage net of agency fees is pretty good. 

It did me as well. That was at Jaguar Land Rover, the "slightly shift pattern" (evening finish I guess) as it was described to me was actually a bit over £15/hr, and day shift was just under.

There's an awful lot of warehouses round here, and even through the worst of the recession we've always struggled to find part time staff for the hire fleet because the recruitment agencies are always looking for people. It'll get more pronounced I expect as lots of the Europeans are going home because the current exchange rate means they don't think it's worth staying here.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Rose Narrowboats

[frahkn]

24 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

We experimented with the "loss leader" route and proved two things. Unsurprisingly, if the boat owner had far more diesel in the tank than they thought, no matter how cheap it was, they couldn't buy more of it.

The argument that it generated additional sales in the chandlery was also made (largely by me), and we were all surprised when we analysed the sales figures. Actually very few people made additional purchases - that really surprised me, and I'm convinced had we done it prior to the 2008 recession the results would have been different, but people are far more cautious and less likely to impulse buy these days. The few who did buy large volumes were also the ones more likely to buy extras though, but they were few and far between.

Off-hand I cannot remember being in a chandlery and not buying something (even if I have no immediate need for the item I am always persuaded that "it will come in useful").

So you only need to get me in there - and that depends solely on how I feel I am treated at the pump.

By the way, my 2003 Orion has a 400 litre tank capacity so it's not only traditional boats.

[Naughty Cal]

8 hours ago, frahkn said:

Off-hand I cannot remember being in a chandlery and not buying something (even if I have no immediate need for the item I am always persuaded that "it will come in useful").

So you only need to get me in there - and that depends solely on how I feel I am treated at the pump.

By the way, my 2003 Orion has a 400 litre tank capacity so it's not only traditional boats.

I'm surprised at the sizes of some of these fuel tanks quoted on narrowboats on here!

Ours is only 50 gallon or 225 litres in new money.

Our minimum fill will usually be in the region of 100 litres, although if we are on the coast this has been as much as 195 litres which was cutting it a bit fine for our liking 

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

I'm surprised at the sizes of some of these fuel tanks quoted on narrowboats on here!

Ours is only 50 gallon or 225 litres in new money.

Our minimum fill will usually be in the region of 100 litres, although if we are on the coast this has been as much as 195 litres which was cutting it a bit fine for our liking 

Were you working out how to lash up a mast & sail? 

[Naughty Cal]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Were you working out how to lash up a mast & sail? 

It had almost come to that.

Needless to say we pulled straight onto the fuel berth at Royal Norfolk and Suffolk Yacht Club and refuelled regardless of cost 

It was pretty lumpy as well on the approach to Lowestoft, as it more often then not is. The engine didn't suck any air in so the fuel pick up must be pretty low down in the tank as it would have been getting sloshed around a fair bit.

Don't think we would want to run it that low again.

[Tony Brooks]

I think my dealings with Rose make a fair case study and may show how income can be lost by sound business decisions.

When we bought the toilet spares (excellent service by the way) I was also giving serious consideration to buying three new 110Ah batteries. Now as an ex battery agent I know the problems about stocking batteries but there were not three batteries available so that was a no sale. Earlier in the year I had also driven to Rose to buy a pair of LED "florescent style" lamps. Again excellent service but only one that I thought ugly in stock so no sale.

I prefer to deal with smaller, often family, concerns and do not like the lack of technical description internet shopping provides but it seems to me that sound business decisions may be killing trade. It is actually closer for me to drive to a branch of the major inland chandlery chain plus they are close to a very good private one that I visit first. So I am now incentivised not to stop for diesel and have little reason to stop for, or drive to, the chandlery.

[Boat&Bikes]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think my dealings with Rose make a fair case study and may show how income can be lost by sound business decisions.

When we bought the toilet spares (excellent service by the way) I was also giving serious consideration to buying three new 110Ah batteries. Now as an ex battery agent I know the problems about stocking batteries but there were not three batteries available so that was a no sale. Earlier in the year I had also driven to Rose to buy a pair of LED "florescent style" lamps. Again excellent service but only one that I thought ugly in stock so no sale.

I prefer to deal with smaller, often family, concerns and do not like the lack of technical description internet shopping provides but it seems to me that sound business decisions may be killing trade. It is actually closer for me to drive to a branch of the major inland chandlery chain plus they are close to a very good private one that I visit first. So I am now incentivised not to stop for diesel and have little reason to stop for, or drive to, the chandlery.

Before we sold our business we had similar problems to Rose. I liked to try and help out those that wanted small low quantity items. Trouble was it often took longer to sort these than the larger more profitable items. In the end we applied a minimum order cost. Our business didn't suffer. The problem here I believe will be that if few of us use the chandlers at Rose boats then they will close it. That leaves one less place to find parts when out boating. Boaters lose out, I doubt Rose boats will. Ian.

[Rose Narrowboats]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think my dealings with Rose make a fair case study and may show how income can be lost by sound business decisions.

When we bought the toilet spares (excellent service by the way) I was also giving serious consideration to buying three new 110Ah batteries. Now as an ex battery agent I know the problems about stocking batteries but there were not three batteries available so that was a no sale. Earlier in the year I had also driven to Rose to buy a pair of LED "florescent style" lamps. Again excellent service but only one that I thought ugly in stock so no sale.

I prefer to deal with smaller, often family, concerns and do not like the lack of technical description internet shopping provides but it seems to me that sound business decisions may be killing trade. It is actually closer for me to drive to a branch of the major inland chandlery chain plus they are close to a very good private one that I visit first. So I am now incentivised not to stop for diesel and have little reason to stop for, or drive to, the chandlery.

I wouldn't disagree with a lot of what you are saying. Once sales fall below a certain level and we withdraw whatever service or stock item from sale, there will inevitably be a certain number of people who come to purchase said item or service who leave disappointed. It's up to me to ensure that I get the balance the right between loosing money by providing something, or loosing money by NOT providing something. A good case in point was on Wednesday when a good customer from a few years back who now moors much further away called in to look at and possibly purchase a fridge. He was a little surprised that we didn't have any on display as he remembered us having a good range previously. I apologised (and obviously I'd have liked to sell him something) but to make any money at all on 12v fridges you need to buy in quantity, and the last time I did that it took over two years to use 6. I say "use" because most of them went into our own boats.

What we've settled on is that we stock essentials and what we need to run the fleet (the LED strips being a perfect example) and boatbuilding and repair business, and if that helps out anyone else who is passing by then great. AT that we're offering the service most people want from us - convenience for those unplanned problems whilst out cruising. On that basis we should  have had a set batteries in stock so you caught us out there. Because the batteries we sell good quality we use them in the hire fleet they're not cheap and we often lose sales because of that.

This forum provides quite an unbalanced view compared to our "typical customer" as members here have a greater interest/involvement in their boat than a great many boat owners. It's not all bad news though from our perspective as what we've lost in chandlery sales to the declining number of DIY boaters (and the internet) as the industry has changed over the last 10-15 years we have more than made up for in increased volumes of repair work.

[WotEver]

52 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

It had almost come to that.

Needless to say we pulled straight onto the fuel berth at Royal Norfolk and Suffolk Yacht Club and refuelled regardless of cost 

It was pretty lumpy as well on the approach to Lowestoft, as it more often then not is. The engine didn't suck any air in so the fuel pick up must be pretty low down in the tank as it would have been getting sloshed around a fair bit.

Don't think we would want to run it that low again.

I had a similar situation (although with far less severe potential consequences) in the car once. I was driving my late father-in-law from Keighley to Nuneaton and had every intention of filling up at a services en route. Nattering away I missed every one and watching the 'miles left' on the dashboard display I said 'We MUST stop at Leicester Forest East or we won't get home'. Needless to say we missed that too and I phoned the missus (hands free!) to say that she might have to come out to us with a can of fuel. I pulled into the next petrol station just as the dashboard display switched to 'Range: 1 mile'. 

[Rose Narrowboats]

13 minutes ago, ianali said:

Before we sold our business we had similar problems to Rose. I liked to try and help out those that wanted small low quantity items. Trouble was it often took longer to sort these than the larger more profitable items. In the end we applied a minimum order cost. Our business didn't suffer. The problem here I believe will be that if few of us use the chandlers at Rose boats then they will close it. That leaves one less place to find parts when out boating. Boaters lose out, I doubt Rose boats will. Ian.

Spot on! We used to be Honda dealers. As time went by and there were fewer and fewer outboard powered boats in the area sales dropped, and so did our familiarity with the product. Just after the last of the "old boys" who'd done a lot with them back in the day retired I spent nearly 2 hours identifying, finding and pricing on Honda's horrible parts system a prop washer, nut and locking pin to the grand total of £1.37. The next phone call I made was to another Honda dealer down on the Avon to see of he wanted to buy all our remaining stock and workshop tools for outboards!

I really should go and do some work......

[Naughty Cal]

11 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I had a similar situation (although with far less severe potential consequences) in the car once. I was driving my late father-in-law from Keighley to Nuneaton and had every intention of filling up at a services en route. Nattering away I missed every one and watching the 'miles left' on the dashboard display I said 'We MUST stop at Leicester Forest East or we won't get home'. Needless to say we missed that too and I phoned the missus (hands free!) to say that she might have to come out to us with a can of fuel. I pulled into the next petrol station just as the dashboard display switched to 'Range: 1 mile'. 

We nearly had that on the drive back from Scotland with the boat. Too busy chatting to realise the dodge needed a drink