Why is it so hard to buy diesel?

[frangar]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Without knowing your boat, how would you expect her to be able to tell "you will need to turn around" until she had 'started the process' and noticed your cap was on the 'wrong side'.

Did you think to say "my filler is on the off-side, will your hose be long enough ?"

Or "My boats been really badly designed I'm afraid with the filler in a stupid place....I'm afraid you will have to hang off the off side to fill....."

[Rose Narrowboats]

38 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

In neither case was I asked what it was for, but in one case I volunteered that it was for my boat. 

Was that the one who took your vehicle reg?

[nicknorman]

41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Without knowing your boat, how would you expect her to be able to tell "you will need to turn around" until she had 'started the process' and noticed your cap was on the 'wrong side'.

Did you think to say "my filler is on the off-side, will your hose be long enough ?"

You are missing the point. Firstly, I had already positioned the boat so the filler was adjacent to the pump and the hose was visibly more than long enough.

No I wouldn't expect her to be able to tell where the filler was in advance - although since it was a "big deal" for them, it wouldn't have hurt for her to mention the issue when I first asked for diesel so that I could have identified the problem and turned the boat round whilst waiting for her to finish what she was doing. But perhaps that is an over-expectation.

No, my point is not when she mentioned the problem, but how she mentioned it. She refused to refuel us outright, with no alternative suggested. Several times, as I sought to find a solution eg "I'll refuel it". I wasn't aware that there was space to turn the boat just a few yards further on, so without that suggestion I could see no possible solution to her repeated refusals. As I said earlier, by the time she finally mentioned that the boat could be turned just a few yards away, it was too late as I'd already become terminally irritated by her repeated refusals for what seemed to me to be specious reasons.

if she had simply said "oh sorry, I can't refuel you facing that way but you can turn the boat in the boatyard just beyond", that would have been absolutely fine. But she was only interested in telling me the problem, not offering the solution of which with hindsight she was clearly well aware.

44 minutes ago, frangar said:

Or "My boats been really badly designed I'm afraid with the filler in a stupid place....I'm afraid you will have to hang off the off side to fill....."

No, I said "the filler's on the offside gunnel, it's a bit awkward so I'm quite happy to do the refuelling". I am quite considerate, despite your repeated and rather pathetic attempts to demonise me. I wonder why you find it necessary to be so obnoxious?

[rusty69]

Maybe narrowboats should have a filler fitted on each side

[nicknorman]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Maybe narrowboats should have a filler fitted on each side

Well it wouldn't be a bad idea on our boat, with its saddle shaped tank. Mind you, it would double the exposure to diesel theft!

50 minutes ago, frangar said:

Or "My boats been really badly designed I'm afraid with the filler in a stupid place....I'm afraid you will have to hang off the off side to fill....."

People who snipe like this for no particular reason are really unpleasant. I don't like you.

[Rose Narrowboats]

13 hours ago, StephenA said:

but excise-notice-554 states:

As well as the sections of Notice 554 you quoted, section 4.8  also states: If you’re a ‘continuous cruiser’ you may not claim all of your fuel for non-propulsion purposes under the arrangements for residential boat owners. Even if you reside permanently on your craft, you must declare your actual intended usage for propulsion.

So under our duty of care that rules out anyone declaring 100% domestic (into a main tank) unless we know they can prove to HMRC that have a local residential mooring and they are travelling solely for the purposes of replenishing fuel/other services.

[Athy]

21 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

People who snipe like this for no particular reason are really unpleasant. I don't like you.

 Nick, I know and understand that you are angry after your experience at the non-filling station, but Frangar was obviously being humorous, as I'm sure you realise. Just because you'd rather have seen the person hanging from a nearby tree than hanging off the far side of your boat...

[frangar]

8 minutes ago, Athy said:

 Nick, I know and understand that you are angry after your experience at the non-filling station, but Frangar was obviously being humorous, as I'm sure you realise. Just because you'd rather have seen the person hanging from a nearby tree than hanging off the far side of your boat...

It's ok. I'll add him to the (long) list of people that I won't be buying a pint for.....

[Machpoint005]

10 hours ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

And in fact recording my vehicle reg didn't demonstrate that it hadn't gone into a boat, did it?

I suspect HMRC would be much more interested in the possibility of it going into a road vehicle's tank later on. 

[bizzard]

A pet elephant could provide a medium for transfering fuel from the pump to your boats filler. The pump attendant pumps fuel into a large bowl placed on the ground, from which the animal sucks it up into its trunk. With its trunk full up it then clomps across to your boat and at your command discharges its cargo of fuel into your orifice. Choose a beast with a nice long trunk that will reach the other side without it mounting your boat which might upset it.  Lets name the pet elephant ''Tanker''. Their poo if dried in the hot summer sun and shaped into handy pats is good fuel for the stove too.  They like to be rewarded with tons of cream buns. For more cream buns they will haul your boat along too, which they really prefer doing rather than keep suffering trunkfulls of diesel fuel which makes them sneeze. They can even make trunk calls, phoning ahead to notify fuel vendors of your approach.

[1st ade]

21 minutes ago, bizzard said:

A pet elephant could provide a medium for transfering fuel from the pump to your boats filler. The pump attendant pumps fuel into a large bowl placed on the ground, from which the animal sucks it up into its trunk. With its trunk full up it then clomps across to your boat and at your command discharges its cargo of fuel into your orifice. Choose a beast with a nice long trunk that will reach the other side without it mounting your boat which might upset it.  Lets name the pet elephant ''Tanker''. Their poo if dried in the hot summer sun and shaped into handy pats is good fuel for the stove too.  They like to be rewarded with tons of cream buns. For more cream buns they will haul your boat along too, which they really prefer doing rather than keep suffering trunkfulls of diesel fuel which makes them sneeze. They can even make trunk calls, phoning ahead to notify fuel vendors of your approach.

The poo from an elephant used regularly to transfer diesel should be more than "... good fuel for the stove"! Instant Fire-lighters would be nearer the mark!

[Machpoint005]

55 minutes ago, bizzard said:

They like to be rewarded with tons of cream buns.

Not sure how long they'd survive on that diet!

(washed down with red diesel).

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

 Nick, I know and understand that you are angry after your experience at the non-filling station, but Frangar was obviously being humorous, as I'm sure you realise. Just because you'd rather have seen the person hanging from a nearby tree than hanging off the far side of your boat...

No, he was not being humorous If it was a one-off I'd agree with you. But he has taken to lurking and firing the occasional snipe at me whenever he sees the opportunity. I don't know why - I have never attacked him  or sniped at him. That is why I remain of the opinion that he is not a nice person.

Edited August 31, 2017 by nicknorman

[frangar]

27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No, he was not being humorous If it was a one-off I'd agree with you. But he has taken to lurking and firing the occasional snipe at me whenever he sees the opportunity. I don't know why - I have never attacked him  or sniped at him. That is why I remain of the opinion that he is not a nice person.

It's a mutual feeling. 

[Athy]

1 minute ago, frangar said:

It's a mutual feeling. 

Now that you two gentlemen have frankly stated your points of view, can this be the end of that particular exchange, please?

[bizzard]

Owning an elephant to perform these duties in a canal enviroment is not always easy and comfortable. Elephants are quite easy going and sociable animals, easily led astray, that can mean trouble. They can be enticed into bad company and habits on the towpath when your not looking ,like at night, under bridges where drug dealers often lurk. An elephant becoming addicted to snorting Coke at cwt a go will break the bank Tanker the elephant will become totally uncontrolable disobedient, cheeky, belligerant, liable to crazy tantrums and stampeding at any loud noises, which, whilst towing your boat at 40mph would be disasterous, collapsing the towpath for miles, sinking you, breaking its towrope and scamper off for another fix. Animals with four knees tend to be very heavy and tend to throw their weight about when angry, so be careful. And don't let it have charge of your wallet. I don't think there are any rehab clinics for elephants. If any of this should occur you may have no alternative but to give up your pet elephant, pack its trunk and dispatch it off to the circus.

[Jim Batty]

Well, we filled up at Fenny Compton yesterday (30 Aug) with no problems. 74p / litre. Chap there said they have a high turn over of fuel so it would be fresh. They don't encourage 100% domestic declarations, but accept them.

 

[Dave Payne]

On 30/08/2017 at 12:04, nicknorman said:

We're coming north from Oxford and getting quite low on diesel. I was rather hoping to get some from Dusty, but it was tied up at Lower Heyford with no-one on board.

 

Next stop Aynho Wharf. We pulled in, tied up and I went into the shop and asked for some diesel (even though it too was 85p!). The lady was doing some admin and said she'd be with us shortly (no rush, I thought!). She came out with a clipboard and wrote down the name and index number on the side of our boat. She started unlocking the diesel pump and then I said "The refuelling point is on the offside gunnel, if you like I'll hang off the side and refuel it". To which she said "In that case I can't sell you diesel, the EA don't allow it, we can't even let boaters do it". If some was spilled we'd be in big trouble" etc. Well we've had this boat for 7 years now and I've never heard that one before. Refuelled on the offside plenty of times. I expressed my incredulity and there was a bit of an exchange and finally she said that there was a winding point just along the way and I could turn the boat round. Well by then I was pissed off and said that I thought the whole thing was ridiculous and we'd get our diesel elsewhere. I was visibly irritated but I didn't shout or swear at her. We untied, she disappeared towards the workshop. Just as we were pulling away a big bruiser of a guy came striding towards us. He looked as if he wanted to say something so I hit reverse and when the boat stopped I said "did you want to say something?" To which he said "I don't want to say anything", but angrily. I said "Well we'll f-off then" and put it into gear. I suppose he might have thought I said he was to f-off but anyway he stared shouting and swearing for us to f-off etc. And of course I am not one to fail to reciprocate at such times! He had steam coming out of his ears and looked like a blood vessel was about to burst and was telling me to "come here and say that", and that I was a coward for not doing so. What a way to run a business! Anyway, that's them off my future list of diesel suppliers - I don't want to do business with violent thugs!

 

I fuelled up here over the summer, had a laugh with the big fella and he gave some tips on jobs i need to do, did 100% at domestic also.

Would use again no problem.

 

[Naughty Cal]

2 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

I suspect HMRC would be much more interested in the possibility of it going into a road vehicle's tank later on. 

When our boat was last out of the water we needed to top the tank up with 60 litres to ensure that the heater had plenty of fresh fuel for the three months ashore.

We bought the red diesel in cans from a Morrisons petrol station on the M18. HMRC were there checking the vehicles buying the red diesel and the reasons that people were buying it.

They were quite happy with our reasons for buying the fuel and a bit disappointed that my car was petrol so they couldn't even check the fuel in it. 

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Now that you two gentlemen have frankly stated your points of view, can this be the end of that particular exchange, please?

Certainly. However perhaps you can now see the true motivation for his post. Now that you are aware of the situation, perhaps you could take some action the next time he does it, which unfortunately will likely be sufficiently in the future for it not to be obvious to anyone except me. For my part I am happy never to engage with him again.

[Tony Brooks]

Note to self - don't stop for fuel at Rose because in all probability they:

a. don't want my custom.

b. will try to rip me off. (50 litre minimum sale)

If I don't stop for fuel then I won't be stopping for the toilet seals & spray (£40+) and Nicholson's guide plus postcards I bought this summer.

Edited to add:- and as I usually get fuel and a pump out together that's another £15 to £20 not taken.

Makes good business sense to me!

Edited August 31, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[Athy]

8 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Certainly. However perhaps you can now see the true motivation for his post. Now that you are aware of the situation, perhaps you could take some action the next time he does it, which unfortunately will likely be sufficiently in the future for it not to be obvious to anyone except me. For my part I am happy never to engage with him again.

Noted, thank you.

[Rose Narrowboats]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Note to self - don't stop for fuel at Rose because in all probability they:

a. don't want my custom.

b. will try to rip me off. (50 litre minimum sale)

If I don't stop for fuel then I won't be stopping for the toilet seals & spray (£40+) and Nicholson's guide plus postcards I bought this summer.

Edited to add:- and as I usually get fuel and a pump out together that's another £15 to £20 not taken.

Makes good business sense to me!

I'm sorry to hear that you have deduced we don't want your custom - selling diesel doesn't keep us in business so if we didn't want to offer the service we wouldn't. I don't see how our policy of not supplying under 50 litres of fuel can be viewed as an attempt to rip anyone off. Surely you must be aware that in almost all cases anyone who needs less than that effectively has a full tank and would be well advised to use up more of what they have anyway.

Ironically, the only other place round here I can think of that sells toilet parts doesn't sell fuel, so you'd have to stop twice anyway - or possibly more than that until you find out who it is.

I couldn't do a pump out for £15. Labour, chemical and disposal costs (we're on a septic tank so the disposal cost to us is about £10 per pump out by the time we've done a decent rinse) add up to more than that, so from a purely business sense perspective it makes no difference whether we do pump outs or not - it's just turnover.

I must thank you though because you've caused me to redo an interesting exercise.

You notional "shopping cart" of items adds up to about £145. I've just calculated after all the costs our clear profit is under £12 - any business analyst will tell you it should be three times that.

Mind you the same analyst, based on margins alone would advise us to sell nothing but postcards!

[Athy]

Rose, as usual you've made some interesting points and it is always interesting to hear an experienced trader's side of a a story.

On the other hand, if I had the choice of making £12 or not making £12 I would probably choose the former. It does sound as if a couple of your prices should go up a little, though.

[nicknorman]

Diesel at our marina is low 60s per litre, pumpout £10.50. I doubt they are making a loss on either of these things. But the key point is that they need to have someone there anyway - the marina manager. So if you don't assign any of her wage to making the sales because she has to be there anyway, they probably make a profit. So the trick, as you alluded to earlier, is to have something productive for the person to do when not actually selling diesel.