Why is it so hard to buy diesel?

[Athy]

10 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

I didn't even get the chance to speak, she just launched into me saying it was a bit late to expect diesel, it was 3.35 pm and the sign stated closes at 4pm. I wouid have moved on if I thought I might find somewhere else before 5pm. I apologised if i was a bit late and offered to do ity myself, which she refused, but I did get my diesel even though it was delivered in a most begrudging manner. She left and locked the office before 4pm so was obviously in a hurry.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, your restrained and polite attitude got you the diesel which you required in the end.

As far as i remember, the diesel there has always been self service. If she had to pour it herself, perhaps she didn't want to risk getting the smell of it on her clothes or person, not that that's an excuse for brusqueness towards someone who was waving money in her direction.

[Midnight]

6 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

The service at Ayho has always been very hit and miss, especially if you wanted to buy anything "unusual" like bread or milk!"!

the relations between Mackems and Smoggies has usually been hit and hit - it must have been the close season.

[blackrose]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I said "Well we'll f-off then" and put it into gear. I suppose he might have thought I said he was to f-off but anyway he stared shouting and swearing for us to f-off etc. And of course I am not one to fail to reciprocate at such times! He had steam coming out of his ears and looked like a blood vessel was about to burst and was telling me to "come here and say that", and that I was a coward for not doing so. What a way to run a business! Anyway, that's them off my future list of diesel suppliers - I don't want to do business with violent thugs!

While I can understand your increasing irritation I can't help thinking you shouldn't have started swearing and if you thought the guy had misheard you and he thought it was directed at him, you should have just apologised and explained rather than swearing back at him. It's simple enough really.

Edited August 30, 2017 by blackrose

[bastion]

Never mind the base price or people's attitude why would would you want to pay more for your diesel by declaring 50/50. 

[nicknorman]

10 minutes ago, bastion said:

Never mind the base price or people's attitude why would would you want to pay more for your diesel by declaring 50/50. 

Perhaps it is because I am an honest person who thinks that we all have to pay our fair share of taxes, as opposed to someone who thinks that tax should be criminally evaded because "they" will pay for the shortfall? (whilst not defining who "they" actually are).

Your boat rarely moves so I'm sure 0% may well be applicable for you much of the time.

Edited August 30, 2017 by nicknorman

[Nightwatch]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

I found that if one was polite to the large lady, she was polite back. I did get the impression that she did not suffer fools at all, never mind gladly.

We were served, when buying diesel at the marina 2 weeks ago, by a medium-sized lady with a pleasant manner and an appealing South African accent.

How do you know that the chandlery didn't make money?

I was told Mike.

Regarding Newbury. The chap who rents/leases the 'shed' doesn't want to give it up,but he was to,d by the owner,Bill Fishers daughter, that she didn't want that part of the business anymore. To say he sounded a bit peeved is perhaps an understatement.

 

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well as it turns out, it's all for the good since we are going to fill up at 70p a litre instead of 85p!

Spoken like a true adopted Scot

[frangar]

17 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Perhaps it is because I am an honest person who thinks that we all have to pay our fair share of taxes, as opposed to someone who thinks that tax should be criminally evaded because "they" will pay for the shortfall? (whilst not defining who "they" actually are).

Your boat rarely moves so I'm sure 0% may well be applicable for you much of the time.

Great....can I send you my companies corporation tax bill?

I'm guessing from the Hudson that was going so fast towards me the other day on the Leicester summit that they obviously burn much more fuel for propulsion than "lesser" craft.....they seem to sit well at an angle on the mud that he found in his haste...so perhaps the extra fuel is used trying to get off....not that both me and the steerer of the stranded boat laughed much....

[nicknorman]

5 minutes ago, frangar said:

Great....can I send you my companies corporation tax bill?

You certainly can. I like a good laugh and we need to start amassing stuff to light the fire with - it's nearly autumn!

[dmr]

25 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

I was told Mike.

Regarding Newbury. The chap who rents/leases the 'shed' doesn't want to give it up,but he was to,d by the owner,Bill Fishers daughter, that she didn't want that part of the business anymore. To say he sounded a bit peeved is perhaps an understatement.

 

But Bills daughter took Ham Basin from Bill, whilst Greenham island was sold to a local garage owner who wanted to expand into the canal business?????? He was a bit greedy as the first thing he did was close the winding hole to gain a couple of extra moorings.

.............Dave

[StephenA]

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

In hindsight and if the EA dictat is true, why not put a sign up saying boats with gunnel fillers can only be refuelled bankside? Why not lead with the suggestion of turning the boat round in the very adjacent turning point, rather than with several exchanges of "we won't refuel you"? What a way to run a business, no wonder they need to make such a huge profit on their diesel!

BSS states that your fuel filler must not be allowed to spill into the boat if there is a spillage... which implies that the BSS expects all fuel spills from filling to go into the water. The EA don't want fuel spills into the canal.... us boaters are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I had a boat yard on the G&S refuse to do a pump out on the offside - which you can sort of understand given the pump out connection location. I don't think we've ever had anyone refuse to sell us diesel just because of the location of the filler (but then again I'm trying to remember the last time the fuel filler wasn't bank side...it just usually seems to be that way).... but in some ways I can see why they don't want to do it as it is potentially more likely to lead to accidental spillages.

As for boat owner doing it - I think that's down to the seller. I've fuelled myself at Wheaton Aston and and other places but some places are very much in the "we have to do it" camp

Edited August 30, 2017 by StephenA

[mrsmelly]

6 hours ago, Athy said:

Sovereign was sold about 2 years ago and the new owner did indeed remove the diesel pump. I am sure that he must have had sound business reasons for doing so as, in addition to passing trade, Sov. is also a small marina with about 15 or 20 moored boats which all, of course, require diesel. At least one CWDFer moors there and we spent about a year there. Perhaps they want to avoid the expense of having a member of staff on site to sell the diesel.

Cropredy Marina does sell diesel and we have found the staff efficient and friendly. There was local opposition to the marina, but it seems to have settled down now.

Fenny Marina sells it too, but please note that they are closed Sundays and Mondays. Also, their former large, well-stocked chandlery is no more, as that section of the building is being converted into a shower and toilet black for their moorers. There is now a small, limited chandlery on the right as you enter the building.

We have not seen the "new Dusty" for at least a year; perhaps he no longer comes as far North as Cropredy.

Dusty ie Jock and Katie doesn't go as far as Cropredy nowadays. They also only do max two trips per month and make enough to enjoy their chosen lifestyle rather than the previous occupations chasing money. I think many people  could take a leaf out of their book. After all the difference between those of us with and without money is the ones without money don't leave any behind, their are no pockets in shrouds. Their work/life balance s certainly better than mine at present though mine is better than many

[Rose Narrowboats]

The whole thing is a minefield and while I'd rather none of this were an issue, it's vaguely comforting to see that other yards have the same challenges.

One of our staff slipped off a customer's boat a few years ago resulting in a trip to A&E where an x-ray revealed small chip to the pelvis as well as extensive bruising. He was given a sick note and as this was technically a fracture we reported it under RIDDOR. The chap was back at work in a few days and life carried on as normal for a few weeks until an HSE inspector turned up fully intent on slapping prohibition notices on all our boats as they were dangerous slip and trip hazards. When she realised she couldn't (as the accident had been on someone else's boat) she spent a LONG afternoon time trawling through our paperwork and interrogating us in a hostile manner trying to catch us for something. We ended up with a minor slap on the wrist as we did not have a documented training procedure for teaching the hire boat cleaning staff how to step on to a boat, but do I want to go through that again? Hell no, hence we are reluctant to walk down some gunwales dragging a pump out hose or diesel hose, especially in the wet, likewise we don't handle coal or gas bottles onto/into other people's boats anymore. I wouldn't risk letting a customer do it themselves either as if they had an accident or a spillage it's still on my premises, so likely to be deemed my fault.

That's not how I set out to run a business, but it's what we have to do now, and combined with the frequent abuse we get over our insistence that a credible diesel declaration is made, I suspect there will come a point where it becomes simpler to say "I'm sorry, we don't sell diesel/gas/pump out etc" any more." than explain (assuming we're given the opportunity) the myriad reasons why we appear to be being unhelpful about how it has to be done and still end up with a lousy review on here/Facebook/Google over something that is a tiny part of what we do.

From a commercial standpoint there's not much money in diesel (and a lot of capital cost with the tank, pump etc), and by the time you've taken someone off another job, helped the customer moor up etc, and done all the paperwork you've lost 30 minutes so need to put a decent amount in the tank to make it worthwhile, yet frequently we used to have people stop who believed they were desperate for diesel, and we'd struggle to put 30 litres in before the tank was full - so now we have a minimum delivery of 50 litres.

The internet has affected chandlery shops just as it has many other physical retailers. It was always a very seasonal business, but now the main demand is from passers by who have broken something, which doesn't provide enough stock turn to justify the amount we carry. Fortunately in our case it is also the stores for the hire fleet and all the repair work we do so it's worth having the stock but we don't have dedicated staff now, whereas 10 years ago we had two full time and one part time in there. It's also a factor that boat owners in general are less inclined to DIY than they used to be, and boats these days tend to use domestic fixtures and fittings.

[mrsmelly]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

You'd think that if she had an awareness of Hudsons, she would know that they have the refuelling point on the port gunnel. Well I presume the ones with trad engine rooms do too? I don't think she knew much about boats, just about how to rip off or offend their owners!

Though I loved my Hudson and its build quality it has to be said the fuel filler was in theeee worst location of any of my boats and a proper pain in the aress and it was so badly vented blow back was nearly inevitable on all but the slowest pumps.

[nicknorman]

8 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Though I loved my Hudson and its build quality it has to be said the fuel filler was in theeee worst location of any of my boats and a proper pain in the aress and it was so badly vented blow back was nearly inevitable on all but the slowest pumps.

I like having the tank under the engine, but yes filling it is a pain. As you say, I think it all boils down to the vent pipe being too small. You have to fill slowly and when it's full there is a "burp" out of the vent losing a teaspoonful or two (we put a tray or something absorbent down to catch it) and a froth blowback from the filler but usually, no fuel at all goes in the cut. We stopped for fuel at Hilperton on the KandA and it was a pleasure - the chap was fully conversant with Hudsons, refilled it himself on the offside (even though I offered to do it for him) having provided some absorbent matting stuff to put under the breather vent. On top of that, it was 65p/litre. Absolutely top marks!

[mrsmelly]

4 hours ago, dor said:

And like so many businesses which think they are more important than their customers or understanding what customer service is, they will eventually go bust and then look to blame anyone but themselves.

The problem is today, and its getting worse daily we get a portion of customers ( growing ) that don't understand that each business has their shall we say trading conditions which of course they are entiteled to and demand whatever they want whenever they want it. We now close at 4 we used to be 5 and we do a mere 5 day week now instead of the 7 days we did the last two years. We generaly start at 7 am and lock up by 5 pm so ok they are short days at only 10 hours and that means only a 50 hour week which for us is certainly part time but we sometimes get moaned at by employed 40 hours a week pratts who get short shrift. We also get dictated to about menu on occasion because we don't do vegan etc or gluten free or soya milk or etc etc etc. If you don't like it sod off somewhere that sells what you want no one can do it all properly, oh and yes we are busier again this year than last as the year before. In short a good business well run doesn't have to cowtail to all and sundry they just have to maintain good customer relations with the majority who understand the situation.

[nicknorman]

16 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

The whole thing is a minefield and while I'd rather none of this were an issue, it's vaguely comforting to see that other yards have the same challenges.

One of our staff slipped off a customer's boat a few years ago resulting in a trip to A&E where an x-ray revealed small chip to the pelvis as well as extensive bruising. He was given a sick note and as this was technically a fracture we reported it under RIDDOR. The chap was back at work in a few days and life carried on as normal for a few weeks until an HSE inspector turned up fully intent on slapping prohibition notices on all our boats as they were dangerous slip and trip hazards. When she realised she couldn't (as the accident had been on someone else's boat) she spent a LONG afternoon time trawling through our paperwork and interrogating us in a hostile manner trying to catch us for something. We ended up with a minor slap on the wrist as we did not have a documented training procedure for teaching the hire boat cleaning staff how to step on to a boat, but do I want to go through that again? Hell no, hence we are reluctant to walk down some gunwales dragging a pump out hose or diesel hose, especially in the wet, likewise we don't handle coal or gas bottles onto/into other people's boats anymore. I wouldn't risk letting a customer do it themselves either as if they had an accident or a spillage it's still on my premises, so likely to be deemed my fault.

That's not how I set out to run a business, but it's what we have to do now, and combined with the frequent abuse we get over our insistence that a credible diesel declaration is made, I suspect there will come a point where it becomes simpler to say "I'm sorry, we don't sell diesel/gas/pump out etc" any more." than explain (assuming we're given the opportunity) the myriad reasons why we appear to be being unhelpful about how it has to be done and still end up with a lousy review on here/Facebook/Google over something that is a tiny part of what we do.

From a commercial standpoint there's not much money in diesel (and a lot of capital cost with the tank, pump etc), and by the time you've taken someone off another job, helped the customer moor up etc, and done all the paperwork you've lost 30 minutes so need to put a decent amount in the tank to make it worthwhile, yet frequently we used to have people stop who believed they were desperate for diesel, and we'd struggle to put 30 litres in before the tank was full - so now we have a minimum delivery of 50 litres.

The internet has affected chandlery shops just as it has many other physical retailers. It was always a very seasonal business, but now the main demand is from passers by who have broken something, which doesn't provide enough stock turn to justify the amount we carry. Fortunately in our case it is also the stores for the hire fleet and all the repair work we do so it's worth having the stock but we don't have dedicated staff now, whereas 10 years ago we had two full time and one part time in there. It's also a factor that boat owners in general are less inclined to DIY than they used to be, and boats these days tend to use domestic fixtures and fittings.

I can sympathise with the HSE angle but I do think that an owner slipping on his own boat couldn't be held against you. He would not be on your premises - unless you own that bit of the canal on which he floats? How would you be supposed to,prevent such an accident? You can hardly require every owner to undergo your training before coming alongside!

I would however pull you up on your comment about "credible declaration". It is not your place to have a view on the credibility or otherwise of the declaration. You don't know how the boat is being used, you don't know whether or not the boat was eg previously filled via cans at full road price, whether another marina required a 60:40 split even though the boat is mostly static.  HMRC do not require you to determine credibility so I suggest your life would be much easier if you didn't attempt to do it.

[StephenA]

11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I would however pull you up on your comment about "credible declaration". It is not your place to have a view on the credibility or otherwise of the declaration. You don't know how the boat is being used, you don't know whether or not the boat was eg previously filled via cans at full road price, whether another marina required a 60:40 split even though the boat is mostly static.  HMRC do not require you to determine credibility so I suggest your life would be much easier if you didn't attempt to do it.

I've always thought that about declarations - it's not up to the boat yard to decide what is credible. If I decide to always go for 100% "domestic" then its up to HMRC to pick up on it when they go through all that "paperwork" and notice that I apparently don't use any fuel for propulsion (in which case if I was purchasing propulsion from a local garage because its cheaper than buying it from the boat yard then I'd expect to have to produce proof that I'd actually done that).   I usually go for a 60/40 but the last fill up before winter tends to be more "domestic".  Both Turners at Wheaton Aston and Norbury, who are two of our regular stops, have never questioned my declaration - they've just made a note of it.

Edited August 30, 2017 by StephenA

[Rose Narrowboats]

Just now, nicknorman said:

I would however pull you up on your comment about "credible declaration". It is not your place to have a view on the credibility or otherwise of the declaration. You don't know how the boat is being used, you don't know whether or not the boat was eg previously filled via cans at full road price, whether another marina required a 60:40 split even though the boat is mostly static.  HMRC do not require you to determine credibility so I suggest your life would be much easier if you didn't attempt to do it.

That's a myth not helped by some poorly worded official looking advice. Here's what HMRC says:

As an RDCO, you must take every reasonable precaution to make sure that your supplies of controlled oil (as defined in paragraph 1.5) are only to persons who will use that oil as permitted by the law. This is a legal obligation, imposed under Regulation 8 (2) of the Hydrocarbon Oil (Registered Dealers in Controlled Oil) Regulations 2002.

If HMRC considers that you have failed in that obligation, they can take enforcement action against you, ranging from a variation of the conditions of your approval to a warning letter and, in more serious cases, withdrawal of your approval, civil penalties and even prosecution.

So, put yourself in my position. A boat that isn't local turns up and wants to buy 30 litres of diesel at 100% domestic into his main engine tank. Would you risk the ongoing viability of your business or prosecution to save a complete stranger £5? I'd rather decline the business than loose the ability to buy red diesel to run our fleets.

And HMRC DO check - we were inspected about 6 months into the new scheme, and our approach and record keeping was described as "exemplary".

[Rose Narrowboats]

16 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I can sympathise with the HSE angle but I do think that an owner slipping on his own boat couldn't be held against you. He would not be on your premises - unless you own that bit of the canal on which he floats? How would you be supposed to,prevent such an accident? You can hardly require every owner to undergo your training before coming alongside!

If someone had our diesel hose, pump out hose in their hands then I don't doubt they'd be regarded as our customer, so we'd struggle not to be involved, though I'd agree less likely to be found at fault at the end of the inevitable investigation in the event of an accident. In the event of a pollution incident I' sure the EA wold find us far easier to go after than an individual, and would just start with "Why did you let an untrained individual use such a dangerous thing as a diesel nozzle."

[mrsmelly]

42 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

The whole thing is a minefield and while I'd rather none of this were an issue, it's vaguely comforting to see that other yards have the same challenges.

One of our staff slipped off a customer's boat a few years ago resulting in a trip to A&E where an x-ray revealed small chip to the pelvis as well as extensive bruising. He was given a sick note and as this was technically a fracture we reported it under RIDDOR. The chap was back at work in a few days and life carried on as normal for a few weeks until an HSE inspector turned up fully intent on slapping prohibition notices on all our boats as they were dangerous slip and trip hazards. When she realised she couldn't (as the accident had been on someone else's boat) she spent a LONG afternoon time trawling through our paperwork and interrogating us in a hostile manner trying to catch us for something. We ended up with a minor slap on the wrist as we did not have a documented training procedure for teaching the hire boat cleaning staff how to step on to a boat, but do I want to go through that again? Hell no, hence we are reluctant to walk down some gunwales dragging a pump out hose or diesel hose, especially in the wet, likewise we don't handle coal or gas bottles onto/into other people's boats anymore. I wouldn't risk letting a customer do it themselves either as if they had an accident or a spillage it's still on my premises, so likely to be deemed my fault.

That's not how I set out to run a business, but it's what we have to do now, and combined with the frequent abuse we get over our insistence that a credible diesel declaration is made, I suspect there will come a point where it becomes simpler to say "I'm sorry, we don't sell diesel/gas/pump out etc" any more." than explain (assuming we're given the opportunity) the myriad reasons why we appear to be being unhelpful about how it has to be done and still end up with a lousy review on here/Facebook/Google over something that is a tiny part of what we do.

From a commercial standpoint there's not much money in diesel (and a lot of capital cost with the tank, pump etc), and by the time you've taken someone off another job, helped the customer moor up etc, and done all the paperwork you've lost 30 minutes so need to put a decent amount in the tank to make it worthwhile, yet frequently we used to have people stop who believed they were desperate for diesel, and we'd struggle to put 30 litres in before the tank was full - so now we have a minimum delivery of 50 litres.

The internet has affected chandlery shops just as it has many other physical retailers. It was always a very seasonal business, but now the main demand is from passers by who have broken something, which doesn't provide enough stock turn to justify the amount we carry. Fortunately in our case it is also the stores for the hire fleet and all the repair work we do so it's worth having the stock but we don't have dedicated staff now, whereas 10 years ago we had two full time and one part time in there. It's also a factor that boat owners in general are less inclined to DIY than they used to be, and boats these days tend to use domestic fixtures and fittings.

An excellent post. The trouble all of us in business have is that the majority of people ( who are not in business) have no clue what in reality is entailed in running each differing business type. We sell food so everybody of course does their own food at home so there is nowt to it is there?  and why do we stop breakfast at 11.30? why don't we do this that and the other etc etc etc.

[RLWP]

45 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

The internet has affected chandlery shops just as it has many other physical retailers. 

You are the only chandlery I know of that stocks barge poles* in sensible lengths

Richard

*yes, I know. Long shafts

[Neil2]

Interesting that Rose Narrowboats consider there's little profit in diesel these days, I can think of at least two boatyards I've had this conversation with, both expressing the opposite view.  I recall one telling me their diesel sales effectively paid the wages of one full time member of staff.  

I too can't understand why any supplier should enter into an argument about what percentage split is appropriate, nor do I understand why some insist on a minimum declaration for propulsion eg 60/40.   If you set up these disincentives then eventually boaters are going to go elsewhere.

Where I would sympathise is boaters failing to respect the hassle of the process and asking for a handful of litres.  I have to say I've never had the slightest problem buying fuel but I do tend to wait until I need 30 gallons then at least the supplier feels like it's a worthwhile task.  

[Rose Narrowboats]

Ah yes, but as per our review, we shouldn't be touched with a barge pole. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty certain that was someone who took umbrage over our diesel policy.

[StephenA]

13 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

That's a myth not helped by some poorly worded official looking advice. Here's what HMRC says:

As an RDCO, you must take every reasonable precaution to make sure that your supplies of controlled oil (as defined in paragraph 1.5) are only to persons who will use that oil as permitted by the law. This is a legal obligation, imposed under Regulation 8 (2) of the Hydrocarbon Oil (Registered Dealers in Controlled Oil) Regulations 2002.

If HMRC considers that you have failed in that obligation, they can take enforcement action against you, ranging from a variation of the conditions of your approval to a warning letter and, in more serious cases, withdrawal of your approval, civil penalties and even prosecution.

So, put yourself in my position. A boat that isn't local turns up and wants to buy 30 litres of diesel at 100% domestic into his main engine tank. Would you risk the ongoing viability of your business or prosecution to save a complete stranger £5? I'd rather decline the business than loose the ability to buy red diesel to run our fleets.

And HMRC DO check - we were inspected about 6 months into the new scheme, and our approach and record keeping was described as "exemplary".

but excise-notice-554 states:

 

Quote

 

3.2 How do I know whether or not to charge duty?

In many cases it may be clear whether the supply you’re making is for commercial purposes or for private pleasure use, for example, when supplying regular customers.

(i) Supplies for commercial use

There’s no change to procedures for supplying fuel for commercial use.

You’re not required to ask customers to produce documentary evidence to prove their status as commercial or private.

(ii) Supplies to pleasure craft

You’re not responsible for ascertaining whether the fuel you sell to an individual is for the propulsion of a private pleasure craft, it’s the purchaser’s responsibility to do so and to make a declaration to that effect.

 

 

Quote

 

3.7 How do I know how much fuel is being used for propulsion as opposed to non-propulsion use?

It’s the purchaser’s, not the supplier’s, responsibility to declare the proportion of fuel used for propelling the craft. It’s your responsibility to charge the correct amount of duty and VAT on the supply, see section 6.

The method of apportionment introduced under this scheme may only be applied to supplies of marked gas oil, not to supplies of other fuels, such as white diesel or petrol.

3.8 What if a private user claims 100% is used for non-propulsion purposes?

In recognition of their status, residential boat owners, whose primary, or often their only, place of residence is their boat, are allowed to purchase all of their fuel at the rebated rate. If a private user claims such status and claims that 100% of their fuel is for purposes other than propulsion, then you may supply the fuel without charging any additional duty and without a declaration, but you should note your records accordingly. See paragraph 4.7 for more information.

If you have any reason to doubt the validity of the status being claimed then you should note your records to that effect.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by StephenA