Vintage engine guides for the uninitiated

[Mick in Bangkok]

Is there any published guides or recommended books or even personal opinions from current owners for engines generally used in narrow boats that can help a first time buyer understand not only various benefits, downfalls and compromises of engines such as Gardner’s, Lister’s and Kelvin etc. but also throw some light on the reference letters that differentiate various models and year of manufacturer etc.

Also which models are easy to find spares for and work on and also which engines offer secondary functions such as water/boat heating and power output suitability for power generating as well as propulsion on canals only or that might extend to navigation of rivers.

I have been trying to research the difference for the past weeks and would appreciate any assistance in educating myself on suitable options for a 70’ narrow boat with separate engine room and traditional looks for a live aboard to be used for continues cruising.  

Any pointers would be appreciated,

Mick

[Athy]

Kevin Whittle's 'A to Z Of Vintage Marine Engines' is perhaps the most comprehensive book on the subject, though it does tend to be written for the enthusiast rather than the beginner. There are various web sites about traditional diesels, including ones which list dates built, power ratings etc. and some, such as the Real Diesels site, which show pictures of each model (Listers only in their case). Regarding spares, off-the-shelf new parts are available for some common makes such as Lister and Gardner, but for certain models only. For example, it's easy to get parts for a Gardner 2LW (which stands for Light Weight - it's just under half a ton!) because Gardner Parts still support this model, but not for the earlier 2L2 because they no longer do.

Marine Engine Services (whose new owners inhabit these pages) are probably your best port of call for advice about Listers, and Walsh's Engineering for info and spares for Gardners. Russell Newbery still build and sell new engines (look for "RN Diesel Engine Co." on the internet).

Regarding benefits, downfalls and the like, talking to owners of various makes of engine is a good way to garner information. Do not be afraid to buttonhole them in a marina or at a lock, as they more often than not enjoy talking about their engines.

...and finally: consider a Gardner 2LW. Slightly less "vintage" than some, as it was produced from 1931 to 1973 and again in the 1990s, but reliable, powerful and attracts envious looks and nice comments, except from owners of "proper" vintage Lister JP2s etc. Yes, I am biased. Ours has done 11 years since Walsh's rebuilt it, with just an annual service and the replacement of one starter motor. Larger models (3LW etc.) are available if you fancy towing water-skiers.

I am NOT a technical expert but I hope these pointers may be useful.

[David Mack]

The oldest engines you are likely to encounter in narrowboats are the single cylinder semi diesels, of which the Bolinder is the best known, but there are a few Gardners, Seffles and others about. These put out 9-15 hp at around 450 rpm. Not for the faint-hearted they require preheating with a blowtorch and are then started by putting the whole of your body weight on a spring loaded pin on the flywheel. Most are direct reversing, so you have to give a manual squirt of diesel at just the right moment to make the whole engine run backwards.

And if a single cylinder version isn't enough there is a 4 cylinder monster in the Yavari on Lake Titicaca in Peru.

Next are the 1930s 'high speed' diesel engines Russell Newbery, National, Lister JP are typical. The 2 cylinder versions put out about 18hp at 1000 rpm, but 3 cylinder versions were also used in tugs and the like. These are all water cooled - often direct water cooling in which canal water passes through the engine. These engines continued to be produced after the war with RNs still available in the 80s/90s.

Note that direct cooled engines which have been used on seagoing boats are likely to have their insides corroded away; those which have had heat exchanger cooling will be a better bet.  

Post war designs are lighter and higher speed - typically running at 1800-2000 rpm for similar output in the 40s/50s, with later engines up to 30 hp and 2300-2500rpm . Many come in air and water cooled versions. Water cooled allow the possibility of heating domestic hot water (although some run quite cool), air cooled avoid the dangers of freezing but are generally noisier. Water cooled examples are Lister FR, some Rustons, air cooled include other Rustons, Petter PD and Armstrong Siddeley - again usually 2 cylinder in narrow boats but also some 3s.

These engines were often made in marine and industrial versions. The marine versions have variable speed control, mechanical marine gearboxes fitted as standard and come with pumps and auxiliaries fitted. Industrial engines, used to run generators, pumps and construction equipment were usually fixed speed and may have had a direct connection to a generator or a pulley for power take off. Water cooled industrials would typically have radiator cooling. Lister JPs have the flywheel on opposite ends on the marine and industrial versions.

You will come across industrial engines converted for narrow boat use. At least one specialist out there does complete rebuilds to give an engine almost indistinguishable from a true marine engine, but most conversions involve changing the governor to variable speed, fitting a modern hydraulic marine gearbox and painting the whole thing green.   

From the 1960s on true marine engines have been rare, with most being standard engines designed for industrial or vehicle use and sold with marine gearboxes. Lister HA, HB, HR in air and water cooled variants are common in 2 and 3 cylinder versions, with the lower powered air cooled SR models being much used in pleasure craft. Vehicle derived engines are typically 4 cylinder and include the BMC 1.5 and 1.8 and less common Ford XLD. 

[Peter-Bullfinch]

Isn't the Norwegian Sabb engine range a "true" marine engine?

The company still exists. The single cylinder 10hp was widely available and often used in small lifeboats, fishing boats and yachts. 

The larger twin cylinders were often for lifeboats, fishing boats and bigger yachts. They came in  a small range of sizes from 22hp up to around 30hp.

These engines were supplied in either a raw water pumped version or enclosed keel cooled versions.

The firm Sleeman and Hawkins still supplies spares for the range.

These engines typically have both handstart and electric start options and also an alternator .

Many came as a complete package with  a matched prop, gearbox and engine.

The engines come with oil and fuel filters and alternator belts of a standard common design easily obtained from any motor factors. 

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Peter-Bullfinch

[Athy]

25 minutes ago, Peter-Bullfinch said:

Isn't the Norwegian Sabb engine range a "true" marine engine?

 

I would say so, yes. 

[Stilllearning]

Let's not forget Bukh as well.

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

Let's not forget Bukh as well.

Brilliant engines, purpose built.

[Athy]

Quite right.

As an aside: A week or so ago we passed a boat called Still Learning. I asked the steerer if he was on CWDF but he said not. He explained that it was a shared boat  owned by about 10 people. Was this your boat?

[David Schweizer]

5 hours ago, Athy said:

Kevin Whittle's 'A to Z Of Vintage Marine Engines' is perhaps the most comprehensive book on the subject, though it does tend to be written for the enthusiast rather than the beginner. There are various web sites about traditional diesels, including ones which list dates built, power ratings etc. and some, such as the Real Diesels site, which show pictures of each model (Listers only in their case). Regarding spares, off-the-shelf new parts are available for some common makes such as Lister and Gardner, but for certain models only. For example, it's easy to get parts for a Gardner 2LW (which stands for Light Weight - it's just under half a ton!) because Gardner Parts still support this model, but not for the earlier 2L2 because they no longer do.

Marine Engine Services (whose new owners inhabit these pages) are probably your best port of call for advice about Listers, and Walsh's Engineering for info and spares for Gardners. Russell Newbery still build and sell new engines (look for "RN Diesel Engine Co." on the internet).

Regarding benefits, downfalls and the like, talking to owners of various makes of engine is a good way to garner information. Do not be afraid to buttonhole them in a marina or at a lock, as they more often than not enjoy talking about their engines.

...and finally: consider a Gardner 2LW. Slightly less "vintage" than some, as it was produced from 1931 to 1973 and again in the 1990s, but reliable, powerful and attracts envious looks and nice comments, except from owners of "proper" vintage Lister JP2s etc. Yes, I am biased. Ours has done 11 years since Walsh's rebuilt it, with just an annual service and the replacement of one starter motor. Larger models (3LW etc.) are available if you fancy towing water-skiers.

I am NOT a technical expert but I hope these pointers may be useful.

Agreed, I have a bound copy of the enlarged second edition which was published in 2002, but it does not seem to be available in that format any more. It now appears to be published in two spring bound editions and available directly from Kevin Whittle :- http://www.whittlebooks.com/

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, Peter-Bullfinch said:

Isn't the Norwegian Sabb engine range a "true" marine engine?

The company still exists. The single cylinder 10hp was widely available and often used in small lifeboats, fishing boats and yachts. 

The larger twin cylinders were often for lifeboats, fishing boats and bigger yachts. They came in  a small range of sizes from 22hp up to around 30hp.

These engines were supplied in either a raw water pumped version or enclosed keel cooled versions.

The firm Sleeman and Hawkins still supplies spares for the range.

These engines typically have both handstart and electric start options and also an alternator .

Many came as a complete package with  a matched prop, gearbox and engine.

The engines come with oil and fuel filters and alternator belts of a standard common design easily obtained from any motor factors. 

 

Sabb is now owned by Frydenbo Industri. Theye are still selling lifeboat engines under the Sabb name, but it looks like they are marinised versions of Kubota and Iveco engines. So no longer "true" marine engines.

http://www.frydenbo-industri.no/products/sabb-lifeboat-engines

 

 

[Athy]

Yes, I think that's so. But I think they still support the old engines. About 7 years ago I almost bought a Springer which had a Sabb and during my research I contacted the company who did seem interested in helping people who had the earlier models.

[stagedamager]

If you need advice on Kelvin or Armstrong's, contact forum members hughc or tom_c who have a large amount of knowledge between them.

 

Dan

[Neil2]

2 hours ago, Stilllearning said:

Let's not forget Bukh as well.

 

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Brilliant engines, purpose built.

Bukh is I think the only company still making a small true marine engine though I believe spares are still in plentiful supply for Sabbs.  Whether they qualify as a "vintage" engine or not depends on how you define the term, but you won't find a less complicated power unit (that runs on diesel) in a boat.  Until recently they were mated with the high quality ZF Marinegear box (which for some reason Bukh have now ditched in favour of the Chad Valley style PRM 120)  and usually Aquadrive flexible coupling for real refinement.   

But the big advantage in owning a Bukh is you get to deal with UK specialists Nick and Steve at TW Marine.  It's rare in the marine world to find people who not only know their stuff but are personable with it, and prepared to give their time freely with no obligation.  I give these guys a plug anytime I get an opportunity.

 

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

Bukh is I think the only company still making a small true marine engine though I believe spares are still in plentiful supply for Sabbs.  Whether they qualify as a "vintage" engine or not depends on how you define the term, but you won't find a less complicated power unit (that runs on diesel) in a boat.  Until recently they were mated with the high quality ZF Marinegear box (which for some reason Bukh have now ditched in favour of the Chad Valley style PRM 120)  and usually Aquadrive flexible coupling for real refinement.   

But the big advantage in owning a Bukh is you get to deal with UK specialists Nick and Steve at TW Marine.  It's rare in the marine world to find people who not only know their stuff but are personable with it, and prepared to give their time freely with no obligation.  I give these guys a plug anytime I get an opportunity.

 

I had the dv 36 3 pot. No heaters or any of that crap. Didn't matter how cold it was even with the canal frozen six inches thick it ALWAYS started instantly before the key had even hit the stop. Proper bit of kit but alas and rightly so a lot more expensive than modern jap units so I suppose that's why we don't see them anymore.

[Neil2]

5 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I had the dv 36 3 pot. No heaters or any of that crap. Didn't matter how cold it was even with the canal frozen six inches thick it ALWAYS started instantly before the key had even hit the stop. Proper bit of kit but alas and rightly so a lot more expensive than modern jap units so I suppose that's why we don't see them anymore.

I think this is the reason why they have dumbed down with the gearbox option.  The ZF box alone is/was over three grand, versus what, £700 for a poxy PRM?  It will bring the price down for sure but is is such a retrograde step.  Apart from any other considerations the DV24, which I have, is basically a lifeboat engine - can you imagine trusting your life to a PRM 120? 

 

[Dav and Pen]

I assume from your post that you have had a bad experience of a prm box. I have had only good experience having had a 250 on a PJ3 and now a 500 on a130hp Perkins. In its 10 years it must have done thousands of gear changes without a blink and just an annual oil change. The pj3 was a replacement for PD2 which should be avoided at all costs. My last NB had a lister HB2 a really lovely engine.

david

[alan_fincher]

1 minute ago, Dav and Pen said:

I assume from your post that you have had a bad experience of a prm box. I have had only good experience having had a 250 on a PJ3 and now a 500 on a130hp Perkins. In its 10 years it must have done thousands of gear changes without a blink and just an annual oil change. The pj3 was a replacement for PD2 which should be avoided at all costs. My last NB had a lister HB2 a really lovely engine.

david

The post refers to the P120 which is the mechanically actuated gearbox, rather than a hydraulically activated type.

Although I have no experience of them, I believe that generally the P120 is considered a fairly lightweight offering compared to the hydraulic models?

We operated a PRM Delta of unknown history on a BMC 1.8 for 10 years, doing no more than very occasional oil changes - it performed faultlessly throughout - I am a fan of the hydraulic PRM boxes, but lack experience of the cheaper/smaller mechanical ones.

[J R ALSOP]

Never read so much praise in one hit for Bukh, I am one of the first on the UK canals with a 2G105, this year its 38 years old, not vintage but it will be, (unlike me, 73 years old tomorrow.  

[Neil2]

35 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

The post refers to the P120 which is the mechanically actuated gearbox, rather than a hydraulically activated type.

Although I have no experience of them, I believe that generally the P120 is considered a fairly lightweight offering compared to the hydraulic models?

We operated a PRM Delta of unknown history on a BMC 1.8 for 10 years, doing no more than very occasional oil changes - it performed faultlessly throughout - I am a fan of the hydraulic PRM boxes, but lack experience of the cheaper/smaller mechanical ones.

Yes the 120 is a cheap way of keeping fitting costs down, unless it's small engine/boat which is really what it was designed for.  But IIRC PRM say it can be fitted to engines up to 70 bhp so it crops up in big heavy narrowboats like the one I had where it was clearly inadequate.  You live and learn.

[David Schweizer]

We had a PRM 160D (now named the 260D) on Helvetia which had done more than 20k hours when the engine was re-built. I asked for the gearbox to be stripped and checked at the same time, and the report was that there was nothing to report, except that all the bearings were still as new with no wear at all.

[Mick in Bangkok]

Thanks for taking the time to pass on so much information, this has given me a better perspective of what is on offer. I have also contacted the ling for the Kevin Whittle book and inquired if a copy can be sent to Bangkok where I am currently located so hope to have a copy of this soon.

Cheers Mick

[LEO]

Hi,

Regarding para.2 of your posting,  obviously an air cooled engine will not produce hot water via a calorifier. Space heating, really the benefits of this are experienced on a cold, wet day when the warmth of the engine room is much appreciated.

As said take care with raw water engines they will not have been protected by inhibitors or anti-freeze.

Most 2LW's have seen many years service in South Africa and returned as wrecks, (some possibly returning to the 'Motherland' land in the late 80's).

I have a 2LW, keel cooled, which provides hot water via a calorifier in a 48ft boat. It would power a 70 foot boat in most conditions.

[Mick in Bangkok]

25 minutes ago, LEO said:

Regarding para.2 of your posting,  obviously an air cooled engine will not produce hot water via a calorifier. Space heating, really the benefits of this are experienced on a cold, wet day when the warmth of the engine room is much appreciated.

Ok, so a compromise to be made here, noise wise I would assume the air cooled to be a lot louder, are air cooled engines after some hours of cruising found to be to loud by many users?

[X Alan W]

19 hours ago, David Mack said:

The oldest engines you are likely to encounter in narrowboats are the single cylinder semi diesels, of which the Bolinder is the best known, but there are a few Gardners, Seffles and others about. These put out 9-15 hp at around 450 rpm. Not for the faint-hearted they require preheating with a blowtorch and are then started by putting the whole of your body weight on a spring loaded pin on the flywheel. Most are direct reversing, so you have to give a manual squirt of diesel at just the right moment to make the whole engine run backwards..

 The Seffle one pot Semi diesel 2 stroke I had in my boat was 25HP @ 600 rpm It was fitted with a gearbox Glo plug heating & Aiir Start although if required blow lamp heating, & spring loaded pin in the flywheel to kick start was available

 

  

 

 

[LEO]

3 hours ago, Mick in Bangkok said:

Ok, so a compromise to be made here, noise wise I would assume the air cooled to be a lot louder, are air cooled engines after some hours of cruising found to be to loud by many users?

Yes, air cooled to tend to be noisier, a nicely set up 1.5 BMC is the least noisy I have had (come o,n let's promote the unsung workhorse of the canal to 'Vintage' status).

With vintage engines you have to be prepared to put up with some noise, smuts and at times exhaust smoke problems.

I wanted a Gardner having seen one in a narrowboat - lovely engineering bearing in minds it's age. Listers are good but my experiences of them were they smoked badly, Nationals were too rare. I would have liked a RN, but the 2LW came first.

The 3LW is a nice bit if kit, very smooth.........

Have fun, let us know when you come over perhaps a few visits to boats with vintage engines will help..

 

L