Gas connections

[Tom Richmond]

So, I have 12mm gas line running from my gas lockers via bulkhead fittings. I need to figure out how to connect bits inside the locker itself. 

Regulator of the screw to the bottle type, via rubber hose to bubble tester then connect to 12mm bulkhead. 

Bubble tester only seems to come in 8 or 10mm, so I guess I go for the 10mm and then step up the pipe size.

Logic (and laziness, lack of space etc) calls for as few connections as possible, so can I go direct from the thread of the tester to the bulkhead fitting, with an unequal female to female threaded fitting? If so what are the threads of 10mm and 12mm compeession?

Many thanks.

[alan_fincher]

By default I think Alde bubble testers come only with metric fittings.

However these can be removed and swapped to imperial, (although this apparently needs a lot of force to do so).

Sourthampton Calor (SoCal) used to sell some already with an imperial conversion, though you would need to check if they still do.

[WotEver]

8 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

However these can be removed and swapped to imperial, (although this apparently needs a lot of force to do so).

Having done so I can confirm both assertions

I'm not sure that rubber hose is acceptable from the low pressure side of the regulator. Can someone confirm/deny?

My understanding is rubber from bottle to regulator then copper from regulator to bubble tester then copper from bubble tester to bulkhead fitting then copper within the boat. 

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

I'm not sure that rubber hose is acceptable from the low pressure side of the regulator. Can someone confirm/deny?

My understanding is rubber from bottle to regulator then copper from regulator to bubble tester then copper from bubble tester to bulkhead fitting then copper within the boat. 

Tom says "regulator of the screw to bottle type", so I can't see any option of going from there to anything else other than in a suitably marked flexible pipe.

That's certainly how Flamingo currently is until I get around to having a non bottle mounted regulator, and that passes BSS fine.

I seem to recall flexible hose mustn't exceed 1 metre, or does that only apply t low pressure appliance hoses, (if used).  Check latest BSS requirements!

[WotEver]

8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Tom says "regulator of the screw to bottle type", so I can't see any option of going from there to anything else other than in a suitably marked flexible pipe.

That's certainly how Flamingo currently is until I get around to having a non bottle mounted regulator, and that passes BSS fine.

I seem to recall flexible hose mustn't exceed 1 metre, or does that only apply t low pressure appliance hoses, (if used).  Check latest BSS requirements!

Yeah, I was misreading it. Not often come across a non-bulkhead regulator. 

[Tom Richmond]

It's just that I have limited space in the locker. A bottle mounted regulator can be hooked out of the way while lifting bottles in and out.

[alan_fincher]

3 hours ago, Tom Richmond said:

It's just that I have limited space in the locker. A bottle mounted regulator can be hooked out of the way while lifting bottles in and out.

Main problem with that is the need to do a full spannering job at any point the gas runs out, and however inclement the weather. I had such an arrangement on Chalice, and changed it.  I'm currently saddled with the same on Flamingo, and with enough time am seeking to change that also.

[Tom Richmond]

16 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Main problem with that is the need to do a full spannering job at any point the gas runs out, and however inclement the weather. I had such an arrangement on Chalice, and changed it.  I'm currently saddled with the same on Flamingo, and with enough time am seeking to change that also.

Yeah, but I have twin lockers. Changeover is just a case of old bottle off, new bottle on. The spanner work can be done at any time before new bottle runs out.

[Onewheeler]

Replace the bubbler fittings with a 1/4" BSP male to 12mm compression on the outlet side and a 1/4" bsp to 10mm fulham connector (or 8mm depending on what size hose you need for your regulator) on the inlet. More or less what I've just done. Use some liquid PTFE sealant on the BSP threads (Screwfix 5321J is good stuff). Ebay has all the bits: e.g. 120964642905 for the outlet.

As said above, the ones fitted to the bubbler need a bit of force to undo: a good spanner and a vice are essential.

Martin/

[alan_fincher]

2 hours ago, Tom Richmond said:

Yeah, but I have twin lockers. Changeover is just a case of old bottle off, new bottle on. The spanner work can be done at any time before new bottle runs out.

So to be clear you have two regulators - one for each separated bottle?

Where do the two low pressure outputs of these different regulators merge?

Are you fitting one bubble tester or two?

If only one, how will the pipework be arranged such that the gas is always passing through that one, whichever cylinder it is that is actually currently turned on?

[Tom Richmond]

 

On 23/08/2017 at 16:21, alan_fincher said:

So to be clear you have two regulators - one for each separated bottle?

Where do the two low pressure outputs of these different regulators merge?

Are you fitting one bubble tester or two?

If only one, how will the pipework be arranged such that the gas is always passing through that one, whichever cylinder it is that is actually currently turned on?

Sorry, only just noticed this reply! 

Yes, two cylinders. Two regulators and two bubble testers! The pipe work will simply T together, I am led to understand that a regulator contains a non return valve, so the empty bottle can be changed over with the full bottle connected and in use. 

I appreciate this is a rather roundabout way of working things, not to mention expensive, but trust me, it is the best of a bad bunch. The extra cost of bubble tester and regulator easily justifies the ease of welding two small bolt on lockers, vs cutting holes in the deck etc etc.

As an aside, how do I know what size regulator to get? They seem to measure in kg/h (the common ones being 1.5 or 4). I will have a small two burner hob and oven, and an instant gas heater. Only relevant figures I can find are output,  listed as 6kw for the cooker, and 18kw for the water heater. I have been advised to use 12mm gas line if that's of any help.

[Onewheeler]

10 kW ~ 0.72 kg / h (Calor data)

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

3 hours ago, Tom Richmond said:

 

Sorry, only just noticed this reply! 

Yes, two cylinders. Two regulators and two bubble testers! The pipe work will simply T together, I am led to understand that a regulator contains a non return valve, so the empty bottle can be changed over with the full bottle connected and in use. 

I appreciate this is a rather roundabout way of working things, not to mention expensive, but trust me, it is the best of a bad bunch. The extra cost of bubble tester and regulator easily justifies the ease of welding two small bolt on lockers, vs cutting holes in the deck etc etc.

As an aside, how do I know what size regulator to get? They seem to measure in kg/h (the common ones being 1.5 or 4). I will have a small two burner hob and oven, and an instant gas heater. Only relevant figures I can find are output,  listed as 6kw for the cooker, and 18kw for the water heater. I have been advised to use 12mm gas line if that's of any help.

If you go ahead and fit a Bubble Tester in this arrangement you will at the very least immediately invalidate your BSS Certificate (Take it from me, I am a Gas Safe Registered BSS Examiner). 

Not only that but by installing the Bubble tester in line with your LPG gallery it will act as a choke and restrict the gas flow to your appliances when they are all running. 

You have 18Kw power in your appliances. Bubble testers cannot be installed in line where appliance ratings add up to more than 12Kw. 

Choking the gas may seem that they won't burn quite as fierce as they should, in actual fact it means that the gas will not burn as it should and it will produce deadly amounts of CO. 

Please seek professional advice. There are ways to install a bubble Tester in systems with over 12Kw appliance ratings but they must be installed in an 'isolated branch' arrangement. 

And with regards to insurance, the BSS have a record of every vessel with a Bubble Tester so in the event of an accident or worse a fatality, the resulting MAIB investigation will look to find out who installed it and when. And if done by other than a GSR Engineer certified to CCLP1-B then your insurance will be invalid. 

Happy to help if you want more advice. 

3 hours ago, Onewheeler said:

10 kW ~ 0.72 kg / h (Calor data)

 

3 hours ago, Onewheeler said:

10 kW ~ 0.72 kg / h (Calor data)

 

[alan_fincher]

15 minutes ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

If you go ahead and fit a Bubble Tester in this arrangement you will at the very least immediately invalidate your BSS Certificate (Take it from me, I am a Gas Safe Registered BSS Examiner).

Could you please post a link to the relvant BSS document that confirms this claim.

Thank you.

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

Could you please post a link to the relvant BSS document that confirms this claim.

Thank you.

The third page of a bss certificate states this. 

 

About the BSS Certificate

The BSS Examination Report (inc. receipt-style BSS Certificate) From April 2013 -

This document reports the findings of your boat's BSS Examination which is to satisfy the question: 'Does your boat meet all the applicable navigation or harbour authority minimum safety requirements on the day it was carried out?' The question has three possible answers:

Yes - In this event, the report can be considered a receipt-style certificate.  It indicates that your boat met all the applicable minimum requirements on the day of examination. You should take note of the expiry date in forward planning your next BSS examination.

It is the entry of this information on the central BSS database, and not the BSS Examination Report, that will be used by your boat licensing body as evidence of your boat's BSS certification status. Keep the certification information with the boat's records and pass it on if you sell the boat.

Yes, but some advice checks did not pass - All the information in the paragraph above applies; however the examiner found advice check items that could not be passed (marked with an 'A'). Although privately-owned boats do not have to comply with advice checks to achieve BSS certification, each one represents best-safety practice and meeting them all is highly recommended. Any listed in the report may be material to the vessel's insurance and the boat owner's duties under the law of occupier's liability.

No - Checks marked 'R' for 'required' have not passed and these items must be addressed to achieve BSS certification. Again as above, addressing any issues linked to any checks marked 'A' included in the report are highly recommended. Full details of what has failed, why and what must be achieved will be provided by your examiner.

Warning notices - these are issued when the examiner has found, or has cause to suspect, that your boat presents a significant and immediate risk. You should arrange, or carry out, works to make the boat safe as soon as possible. The general nature of the risk and any checks associated with Warning Notice will be identified by your examiner.

About the BSS Examination and its limitations

Please note: the BSS Examination findings, and examination report, relate only to the facts observed at the time of the BSS Examination. It is not evidence of compliance with the navigation authorities' requirements at any other time.

The owner's on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority.  The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made; or if a hire boat or other type of non-private boat is examined against the 'private boat' category of BSS checks.

A BSS examination and examination report relates only to the relevant version of the BSS Examination Checking Procedures published on boatsafetyscheme.org. Depending upon the nature of the specific check, the examination may be confined to items that can be seen, reached or touched.

A BSS examination is not a full condition survey, nor is it an indication that the vessel is fit for purpose.  For example, it does not cover the condition of the hull or deck, the integrity of through-hull fittings or the stability of the boat and it isn't the same as having your boat serviced and doesn't check its general mechanical condition.

Prospective boat purchasers are strongly advised to satisfy themselves about all aspects of a vessel's condition by commissioning a pre-purchase survey before committing themselves to becoming new owners. Some surveyors are also authorised BSS Examiners and may be willing to carry out a BSS examination whilst surveying the craft if contracted so to do. 

 

Please note the text text in Bold Underlined. 

 

The standards for LPG installation on vessels up to 24m in length are BS10239 and PD54823:2016

 

Thanks

 

 

[nicknorman]

11 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

If you go ahead and fit a Bubble Tester in this arrangement you will at the very least immediately invalidate your BSS Certificate (Take it from me, I am a Gas Safe Registered BSS Examiner). 

Not only that but by installing the Bubble tester in line with your LPG gallery it will act as a choke and restrict the gas flow to your appliances when they are all running. 

You have 18Kw power in your appliances. Bubble testers cannot be installed in line where appliance ratings add up to more than 12Kw. 

Choking the gas may seem that they won't burn quite as fierce as they should, in actual fact it means that the gas will not burn as it should and it will produce deadly amounts of CO. 

Please seek professional advice. There are ways to install a bubble Tester in systems with over 12Kw appliance ratings but they must be installed in an 'isolated branch' arrangement. 

And with regards to insurance, the BSS have a record of every vessel with a Bubble Tester so in the event of an accident or worse a fatality, the resulting MAIB investigation will look to find out who installed it and when. And if done by other than a GSR Engineer certified to CCLP1-B then your insurance will be invalid. 

Happy to help if you want more advice. 

 

 

What you say is simply not true, and I for one resent you coming on here spreading false information, presumably in an attempt to drum up business for yourself. Clearly the Bubble tester should be suitable for the max load and an inadequate one giving excessive pressure drop would be a BSS fail. That is not in doubt.

However you go on to say that a bubble tester correctly installed by the owner would nevertheless invalidate the BSS and hence insurance. This is simply not true. Please get your facts right before posting misleading stuff and using your qualification to attempt to make your view seem more valid. You clearly don't know what you are talking about and thus are off my BSS inspector list.

Edited September 1, 2017 by nicknorman

[alan_fincher]

11 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Could you please post a link to the relvant BSS document that confirms this claim.

Thank you.

 

10 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

The third page of a bss certificate states this. 

 

 

About the BSS Certificate

The BSS Examination Report (inc. receipt-style BSS Certificate) From April 2013 -

This document reports the findings of your boat's BSS Examination which is to satisfy the question: 'Does your boat meet all the applicable navigation or harbour authority minimum safety requirements on the day it was carried out?' The question has three possible answers:

Yes - In this event, the report can be considered a receipt-style certificate.  It indicates that your boat met all the applicable minimum requirements on the day of examination. You should take note of the expiry date in forward planning your next BSS examination.

It is the entry of this information on the central BSS database, and not the BSS Examination Report, that will be used by your boat licensing body as evidence of your boat's BSS certification status. Keep the certification information with the boat's records and pass it on if you sell the boat.

Yes, but some advice checks did not pass - All the information in the paragraph above applies; however the examiner found advice check items that could not be passed (marked with an 'A'). Although privately-owned boats do not have to comply with advice checks to achieve BSS certification, each one represents best-safety practice and meeting them all is highly recommended. Any listed in the report may be material to the vessel's insurance and the boat owner's duties under the law of occupier's liability.

No - Checks marked 'R' for 'required' have not passed and these items must be addressed to achieve BSS certification. Again as above, addressing any issues linked to any checks marked 'A' included in the report are highly recommended. Full details of what has failed, why and what must be achieved will be provided by your examiner.

Warning notices - these are issued when the examiner has found, or has cause to suspect, that your boat presents a significant and immediate risk. You should arrange, or carry out, works to make the boat safe as soon as possible. The general nature of the risk and any checks associated with Warning Notice will be identified by your examiner.

About the BSS Examination and its limitations

Please note: the BSS Examination findings, and examination report, relate only to the facts observed at the time of the BSS Examination. It is not evidence of compliance with the navigation authorities' requirements at any other time.

The owner's on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority.  The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made; or if a hire boat or other type of non-private boat is examined against the 'private boat' category of BSS checks.

A BSS examination and examination report relates only to the relevant version of the BSS Examination Checking Procedures published on boatsafetyscheme.org. Depending upon the nature of the specific check, the examination may be confined to items that can be seen, reached or touched.

A BSS examination is not a full condition survey, nor is it an indication that the vessel is fit for purpose.  For example, it does not cover the condition of the hull or deck, the integrity of through-hull fittings or the stability of the boat and it isn't the same as having your boat serviced and doesn't check its general mechanical condition.

Prospective boat purchasers are strongly advised to satisfy themselves about all aspects of a vessel's condition by commissioning a pre-purchase survey before committing themselves to becoming new owners. Some surveyors are also authorised BSS Examiners and may be willing to carry out a BSS examination whilst surveying the craft if contracted so to do. 

 

Please note the text text in Bold Underlined. 

 

The standards for LPG installation on vessels up to 24m in length are BS10239 and PD54823:2016

 

Thanks

 

 

 

So that's a "no" then!

[Dylan]

12 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

If you go ahead and fit a Bubble Tester in this arrangement you will at the very least immediately invalidate your BSS Certificate (Take it from me, I am a Gas Safe Registered BSS Examiner). 

Not only that but by installing the Bubble tester in line with your LPG gallery it will act as a choke and restrict the gas flow to your appliances when they are all running. 

You have 18Kw power in your appliances. Bubble testers cannot be installed in line where appliance ratings add up to more than 12Kw. 

Choking the gas may seem that they won't burn quite as fierce as they should, in actual fact it means that the gas will not burn as it should and it will produce deadly amounts of CO. 

Please seek professional advice. There are ways to install a bubble Tester in systems with over 12Kw appliance ratings but they must be installed in an 'isolated branch' arrangement. 

And with regards to insurance, the BSS have a record of every vessel with a Bubble Tester so in the event of an accident or worse a fatality, the resulting MAIB investigation will look to find out who installed it and when. And if done by other than a GSR Engineer certified to CCLP1-B then your insurance will be invalid. 

Happy to help if you want more advice. 

 

 

A lot of what you say makes sense, and clearly no device should be used beyond its design capability, whether it be a gas appliance, a lifting device or whatever. Your last sentence that I have highlighted concern me. I am not sure if this statement accurate?

Edited September 1, 2017 by Dylan

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

I can assure you that every BSS records the use of either a manometer or bubble Tester by the examiner. 

Having been involved in a number of investigations in the past I can assure you that no stone is left unturned by the MAIB or HSE and whosoever is responsible for the incident/accident would be prosecuted by the authorities. 

If an examiner is responsible we are all insured for PI. 

Most people undertaking DIY generally don't! 

The risk is theirs. 

If in doubt, seek the advice of a professional, after all, advice is free and could save a life.

 

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

 

So that's a "no" then!

Well it's true what they say, you can't design out an idiot!

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

What you say is simply not true, and I for one resent you coming on here spreading false information, presumably in an attempt to drum up business for yourself. Clearly the Bubble tester should be suitable for the max load and an inadequate one giving excessive pressure drop would be a BSS fail. That is not in doubt.

However you go on to say that a bubble tester correctly installed by the owner would nevertheless invalidate the BSS and hence insurance. This is simply not true. Please get your facts right before posting misleading stuff and using your qualification to attempt to make your view seem more valid. You clearly don't know what you are talking about and thus are off my BSS inspector list.

Well I just examine them and have provided the wording on Page 3 of the certificate. 

 

For the record, I don't need a bubble Tester in any vessel to test the gas as I am a qualified Gas Safe Registered Engineer. Are you?

As for drumming up business, I don't want it, in fact, if all of the clever people giving advice on here like you actually knew anything or took the time to read the standards, you would find that BS10239 mandates the installation of 'a simple means for the user to test the system for leakage' which is not necessarily a bubble Tester. 

The only BSS examiners actively promoting the installation of Bubble Testers are those few who wish to force people into buying somethingwho do not hold GSR or ACS qualification in LPG who want to continue testing liveaboard boats (which they are prohibited from doing unless a Bubble Tester is installed).

There are cheaper, simpler, idiot proof options available that can be fitted by anyone (such as a gas gauge) without affecting the validity of their BSS certificate! Have you been promoting or advising those? Probably not because you are a practicing 'Non Gas Safe Registered, Non ACS trained, Non CCLP1-B 'expert' who is actively helping good people do dangerous things with absolutely no compunction of your own liability!

as I stated earlier, you can't design out an idiot!

 

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

Well I just examine them and have provided the wording on Page 3 of the certificate. 

 

For the record, I don't need a bubble Tester in any vessel to test the gas as I am a qualified Gas Safe Registered Engineer. Are you?

As for drumming up business, I don't want it, in fact, if all of the clever people giving advice on here like you actually knew anything or took the time to read the standards, you would find that BS10239 mandates the installation of 'a simple means for the user to test the system for leakage' which is not necessarily a bubble Tester. 

The only BSS examiners actively promoting the installation of Bubble Testers are those few who wish to force people into buying somethingwho do not hold GSR or ACS qualification in LPG who want to continue testing liveaboard boats (which they are prohibited from doing unless a Bubble Tester is installed).

There are cheaper, simpler, idiot proof options available that can be fitted by anyone (such as a gas gauge) without affecting the validity of their BSS certificate! Have you been promoting or advising those? Probably not because you are a practicing 'Non Gas Safe Registered, Non ACS trained, Non CCLP1-B 'expert' who is actively helping good people do dangerous things with absolutely no compunction of your own liability!

as I stated earlier, you can't design out an idiot!

 

This seems a lot of smokescreen to cover up the fact that what you stated earlier is not true. I don't have a bubble tester and have never promoted them. I do not have some bits of paper you have, but I am familiar with the GSIUR and BS EN ISO 10239 so I know when someone is spouting an untruth. Of course it is not mandatory to comply with 10239 unless building to the RCD, but good practice to do so of course. You have no evidence that I am helping good people do dangerous things and therefore your remarks are libellous.

i rather get the impression that you are quite pleased with yourself at having your bits of paper and have no compunction in making up rules to suit your agenda, something which (in the context of BSS examiners) is the bane of boaters lives at BSS time.

Oh and by the way, your rudeness in calling Alan and I idiots has, I suspect, just lost you any business you might have got via this forum. Especially when it fact everyone can see that it is you who is the idiot.

Edited September 1, 2017 by nicknorman

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

Familiar with eh???? Have to tried GI(US)P?

 

look it up. 

 

Only get smoke screens after fires. 

 

I refer to my earier statements 

[Dylan]

3 hours ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

I can assure you that every BSS records the use of either a manometer or bubble Tester by the examiner. 

Having been involved in a number of investigations in the past I can assure you that no stone is left unturned by the MAIB or HSE and whosoever is responsible for the incident/accident would be prosecuted by the authorities. 

If an examiner is responsible we are all insured for PI. 

Most people undertaking DIY generally don't! 

The risk is theirs. 

If in doubt, seek the advice of a professional, after all, advice is free and could save a life.

 

Well it's true what they say, you can't design out an idiot!

How unpleasant. post reported.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Dylan

[nicknorman]

23 minutes ago, Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk said:

Familiar with eh???? Have to tried GI(US)P?

 

look it up. 

 

Only get smoke screens after fires. 

 

I refer to my earier statements 

GI(US)P doesn't exist. Well, in your mind perhaps, but not in mr Google's. I refer to your earlier statement - it is still untrue.

[Steve@iwabss-limited.co.uk]

Ahh. Well there you go! The expert amateur shoots his other foot off. 

As as much as I like this sort of sport, it gets rather tiresome after a while. 

Education ....... The GI(US)P also known in the trade by Bona Fide Gas Engineers (which you aren't) as L56, is the Gas Installation (Unsafe Situations) Procedures. 

That is what Gas Engineers are guided by when we come to a boat that has been 'cobbled together' by a well meaning expert amateur when we Disconnect the supply, issue a warning notice, if necessary report the issue to the HSE and then walk away, content in the knowledge that we have strengthened the gene pool by prolonging its population by one (at least) amateur expert to help all us qualified guys out! 

Done with you now, only to offer one last bit of advice (which you are bound to ignore).......

Never, ever, enter into a battle of wits with someone when you are so obviously half armed!

you will get that in a bit  

TTFN!