Angry marina owner

[haza]

I have a reso morring and you are told by CRT to inform council concerning tax ,and yes I do pay it but I don't no abt marinas as I'm not in one ,,

[haza]

And I luv it and would have it no other way ,,it suits my way of life and those who cc it there way of life 

[Bargebuilder]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

One of the examples given : If a boat moves its mooring it is NOT subject to individual council tax.

Exactly my point: Marina operators are accepting liveaboards, sometimes against the wishes of their local councils, and allowing them to avoid paying council tax by exploiting the fact that if they all play musical berths every few months, they can't be taxed like 'haza' on his C&RT residential berth.

[haza]

CRT  say its up to you to inform the counsel ,as far as I could tell it was not compulsory ,I  informed them because I did not want a massive bill for not paying it ..as I knew tax had to be paid as I knew the people who had the morring before me paid it , as for leisure morrings every man and is dog know peeps use them as residential ,nothing wrong with that in my book ,there s more to worry about in this world then tax ,,some times I worry about my punctuation and grammar then I do about paying tax but then again dislexia is another story lol 

[Bargebuilder]

27 minutes ago, haza said:

Funny how HM Revenue and Customs will do their best to insist that your 'new-build' IS NOT a houseboat and therefore not VAT exempt, whilst your local council will do their best to insist that the very same boat IS a houseboat and should, together with its berth, be banded for council tax.

[luggsy]

And where would all the cc moor up ?

[haza]

Most ccers do it because they want too don't they .what with the cost of fuel and the like ,they are not that much better off I don't think as they would be in a marina ,,maybe wrong on that tho cc.er would have to tell you that one 

[Bargebuilder]

One could cover a lot of miles (litres of fuel) for the cost of a marina berth for a narrowboat.

This thread, of course, originated because of a marina proprietor who was complaining, not about continuous cruisers, but those who purport to be such, but in practice hog short term moorings or just move short distances, up and down the same stretch of waterway.

I doubt that anyone has any problem whatever with genuine continuous cruisers. There is no shortage of unrestricted canalside against which they could moor for periods not exceeding two weeks before moving on.

[Bargebuilder]

14 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

some marinas have an agreement with local councils that enable living aboard with a reduced council tax payment if the berthholders agree to being moved from one berth or another they let it happen in full knowledge of it.

 

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The VoA make it clear which boats pay Council Tax

There is no need (or ability) for local councils to 'negotiate' anything - it is all listed in the manual - with examples given.

One of the examples given : If a boat moves its mooring it is NOT subject to individual council tax.

Alan De Enfield above mentions that if a boat periodically moves from berth to berth in the same marina, it would not be subject to council tax, and yet mrsmelly says that he is aware of councils who insist that permanent liveaboards move from berth to berth in the same marina, and still charge them council tax.

Are some councils demanding council tax from boaters when there own rules state that they should be exempt from such payments?

[Alan de Enfield]

24 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

 

Alan De Enfield above mentions that if a boat periodically moves from berth to berth in the same marina, it would not be subject to council tax, and yet mrsmelly says that he is aware of councils who insist that permanent liveaboards move from berth to berth in the same marina, and still charge them council tax.

Are some councils demanding council tax from boaters when there own rules state that they should be exempt from such payments?

In the cases where the boat 'moves' moorings within a marina, the Moorings (in total - not in individually) become subject to 'rates' (not council tax). The total value of all the moorings is added up

" If there are two or more such moorings in the marina, all the moorings and land under the control of the marina operator should be treated as one hereditament by virtue of the Multiple Moorings Regulations. The marina operator will be in permanent occupation."

 

It is then the marina owner that becomes liable for the payment of the 'Rates' (NOT council tax)

The marina owner then amortises the 'Rates' bill by the number of boats / moorings and adds that to the standard mooring fee - hence the reason why a 'residential mooring' costs more than a leisure mooring even tho' the individual boat is not subject to Council tax.

 

In the case where boats are not required to move (or refuse to move) then the boat becomes 'fixed' and is subject to Council Tax in whatever band is applicable. The value of the boat CAN be added to the value of the mooring to determine the band, but, generally they will all fall into band 'A'.

I had a problem explaining the need to move to some moorers in our marina, until I explained the 'bottom line' was :

1) Agree to move and pay £100 per annum as your proportion of the composite hereditament, or,

2) Refuse to move and pay £1200 per annum (band A) as Council tax.

The message was finally understood.

[Alan de Enfield]

More Info - I did a lot of investigative work for 'due diligencce' when we were looking to buy a marina :

A Boat is normally a 'chattel', but it and its mooring can become 'Domestic Property', and subject to council tax,if certain criteria are met.

From the VoA :

3. What is Domestic Property?

3.1 Domestic property is defined in Section 66 LGFA 1988.

3.2 The Rating (Caravan and Boats) Act 1996 amends Section 66(3) & (4) with effect from 1 April 1990 so as to clarify when a caravan pitch or a boat mooring comprises domestic property. A copy of the relevant sections of the Act is attached to this Practice Note as Appendix A.

Broadly, a caravan pitch or boat mooring is domestic property when either:

• is occupied by a caravan or boat that is a sole or main residence of an individual, and therefore treated as a dwelling; or
• is an appurtenance enjoyed with other living accommodation (which is itself a dwelling) and is not a separate hereditament.
• a constructed or established pitch or mooring becomes occupied by a boat or caravan used as a sole or main residence, then the pitch or mooring will constitute domestic property ie a dwelling from that date.

3.3 Caravan pitches and boat moorings which when next in use will be domestic property

S.66(5) of the LGFA 1988 provides that,

“Property not in use is domestic if it appears that when next in use it will be domestic”

Therefore a pitch or mooring which has no caravan or boat situated on it will not constitute domestic property, unless:

• it forms part of a larger hereditament which itself is domestic property i.e. house and grounds

• it is clear that when next in use this will be as the pitch for a caravan, or mooring for a boat, which is a sole or main residence.

 

4.4 Land, which comprises either the pitch of a caravan or the mooring for a boat, may constitute a separate hereditament in its own right, with or without the caravan or boat. If the caravan or boat is not treated as part of the hereditament then the pitch or mooring alone is the “dwelling” and is banded accordingly. If the caravan or boat is included because it is regarded as sufficiently permanent, then both the pitch and caravan or the mooring and boat are included in the valuation for banding.

 

5. Whether the value of the caravan or boat is to be included with the mooring in the Council Tax Valuation for Banding Purposes

5.1 Technically the boat or caravan is a chattel which will only become part of the hereditament if its presence has a sufficient degree of permanence to the land.

5.2 In London County Council v Wilkins (VO) 1954 (HL) the question of whether a chattel was rateable was considered. Lord Kilmur said that the test of rateability was whether there is evidence that the structures were enjoyed with the land and enhanced its value. He concluded that,

“A chattel to be rateable must be rateable with the land on which it rests”.

 

6. Summary of Policy

6.1 The policy that the legislation is intended to achieve can be summarised as follows. Although this specifically refers to boats and moorings the same principles apply to caravans and their pitches.

a) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored “permanently” at a mooring, then the mooring is domestic property, and both the mooring and the boat are subject to Council Tax.

If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence stops at a mooring and moves away for a sufficiently long period (see 6.2), and it seems that when next in use that mooring will be used by that same boat or another boat which is someone’s sole or main residence, then the mooring is domestic but the mooring only is subject to Council Tax.

c) If a boat which is someone’s sole or main residence is moored at a mooring and moves away, and it seems that when next in use the mooring will be used by a non-sole or main residence boat, then the mooring is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

d) If there is a mooring with no way of telling what sort of craft will be moored at it, then it is non-domestic and subject to non-domestic rates.

6.2 Whether the value of the boat or caravan can be included with the pitch is a matter of fact and degree. As a general rule, where a dwelling boat or caravan occupies a mooring or pitch for a substantial period of time - such duration would usually be for 12 months or more - it should be included in the band value, even if it moves away for brief periods of say 2 to 4 weeks, provided it then returns to its original mooring or pitch. The question to be asked is whether the occupation can be characterised as that of a 'settler' or a 'wayfarer'. If the latter, then only the mooring or pitch should be valued.

To be clear, this paragraph refers only to the treatment of the chattel value, not to establish whether a dwelling exists – that is the established mooring or pitch. A caravan does not have to be in place on a recognised pitch for 12 months to establish the pitch as a dwelling, nor does a boat have to be moored on a recognised mooring for 12 months to establish the mooring as a dwelling.

6.3 Even if the sole or main resident of a caravan or boat does not have exclusive rights to a particular pitch or mooring if, in practice, the caravan or boat occupies the land with sufficient permanence it will be included with the mooring as domestic property, and the value included in the Council Tax banding.

 

The above are only extracts and to get the full context you should read all of the various acts and cited precedents.

Edited August 23, 2017 by Alan de Enfield