Water pump

[David Shepherd]

We have recently bought a 2011 44' East-West narrowboat and have a problem with the water pump. The boat has been moored in a marina from new and has only done 240 hours cruising. Last month we lent her out and my friend told me that the water pump was constantly turning itself on and so he ended up turning it off for most of the time. An engineer has looked and told me that I probably will need a new smaller pump because in his opinion the one that is installed is producing 45 psi and is unnecessarily powerful. We live on the Isle of Man and cannot therefore just pop down to the marina to check things and are relying on what he says. Do any other East-West owners have a similar problem and is it easily remedied? Thank you for any help or guidance.

[rusty69]

Worth checking for leaks,and your PRV if you have a calorifier.

 

What pump is it? 

Edited August 22, 2017 by rusty69

[David Shepherd]

OK thankyou. I don't know the make of pump unfortunately because all the details are on the boat and we are on the Isle of Man!! I don't even know if we have a calorifier because we're noobies and have only just bought her. A bloke in the same marina said it could be the PRV and that is why I'm reluctant to follow the engineer's advice and buy a new pump.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

OK thankyou. I don't know the make of pump unfortunately because all the details are on the boat and we are on the Isle of Man!! I don't even know if we have a calorifier because we're noobies and have only just bought her. A bloke in the same marina said it could be the PRV and that is why I'm reluctant to follow the engineer's advice and buy a new pump.

What did the engineer suggest was the problem? 

[Tony Brooks]

Especially as the pump cut out pressure may well be adjustable. However is this not one of the Chinese "container boats" and if so goodness knows what equipment has been fitted.

In my view 45 psi/3 bar is too close to the Ilkley PRV opening pressure for comfort.

[WotEver]

Pump constantly turning on for a short period is indicative of a leak. The leak could be from any joint or from the PRV or backwards past the pump to the tank. 

As Tony B points out, if the pump really is at 45psi then the leak may well be past the PRV. 

[David Shepherd]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

What did the engineer suggest was the problem? 

He said that in his opinion there was no need for such a powerful pump producing 45psi and that even 70' narrowboats didn't need that much hence he suggested a new pump. I'm sure the manufacturers had a reason for installing that type though.

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Especially as the pump cut out pressure may well be adjustable. However is this not one of the Chinese "container boats" and if so goodness knows what equipment has been fitted.

In my view 45 psi/3 bar is too close to the Ilkley PRV opening pressure for comfort.

Yes it was made in China and surely the manufacturers have installed that particular pump for a reason. We met someone with exactly the same boat in Market Drayton and he's not had a single problem with anything in 8 years!

[rusty69]

The cruising hours are not related to pump usage. Water pumps are consumables imo. If the engineer couldn't find the problem and solution, then there either wasn't one, or he's not much of an engineer. 

I suppose it could be intermittent, but unlikely. Either that or your mate had left a tap on

[Tony Brooks]

Fine, someone has had no trouble for 8 years so yours must be right - why ask for advice then?

How does the "engineer" know its a 45 psi pump? Did he measure it or did he just read the label? If its the former then the pump's pressure switch may have gone faulty. In any case the pump cut out pressure AND the PRV opening pressure need considering together before jumping to conclusions.

I can not see the Chinese fitting a stronger calorifier than typical UK made ones, if anything I would suggest it is more likely to be the opposite. In very general terms I would expect a UK PRV to be set to 3 bar maximum and the pump cut out at 2 to 2.5 bar (that's 45 psi, 30psi & 37psi respectively). If a pump cut out pressure and the PRV setting are too close together the pressure pulses cause by taps being shut are likely to bounce up and down the pipes causing the PRV to keep opening and closing and therefore the pump to keep running. If the PRV has been dribbling because of the high pump pressure it may also have scale on its seat that now prevent it closing completely.

Both the pump cut out pressure and the PRV need checking. All that may be needed is the PRV cap being given a few twists but with 45pSI I would be turning the pressure down a bit as well.

Note all the above does NOT  rule out a leaking pipe or leaking valves in the pump that would also give these symptoms.

In my view the "engineer" was talking out of his rear end re the pressure being too much for the boat. It all depends upon other things like the PRV setting. Although I run my system at about 15 psi 45psi will give you a very good power shower experience.

No one has enough information to give you much more help that we have.

Edited to add:

A high pressure on its own is not a problem as long as the PRV opening pressure is a bit higher still. What it can do is make leaks from pipes etc more likely but you do not repair that by fitting a lower pressure pump. You cure the leak. In any case as most water pumps are adjustable it should be simple enough to turn the pressure down.

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[David Shepherd]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

The cruising hours are not related to pump usage. Water pumps are consumables imo. If the engineer couldn't find the problem and solution, then there either wasn't one, or he's not much of an engineer. 

I suppose it could be intermittent, but unlikely. Either that or your mate had left a tap on

No all the taps were definitely off so possibly a leak somewhere but I'm not there to check

[David Shepherd]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Fine, someone has had no trouble for 8 years so yours must be right - why ask for advice then?

How does the "engineer" know its a 45 psi pump? Did he measure it or did he just read the label? If its the former then the pump's pressure switch may have gone faulty. In any case the pump cut out pressure AND the PRV opening pressure need considering together before jumping to conclusions.

I can not see the Chinese fitting a stronger calorifier than typical UK made ones, if anything I would suggest it is more likely to be the opposite. In very general terms I would expect a UK PRV to be set to 3 bar maximum and the pump cut out at 2 to 2.5 bar (that's 45 psi, 30psi & 37psi respectively). If a pump cut out pressure and the PRV setting are too close together the pressure pulses cause by taps being shut are likely to bounce up and down the pipes causing the PRV to keep opening and closing and therefore the pump to keep running. If the PRV has been dribbling because of the high pump pressure it may also have scale on its seat that now prevent it closing completely.

Both the pump cut out pressure and the PRV need checking. All that may be needed is the PRV cap being given a few twists but with 45pSI I would be turning the pressure down a bit as well.

Note all the above does NOT  rule out a leaking pipe or leaking valves in the pump that would also give these symptoms.

In my view the "engineer" was talking out of his rear end re the pressure being too much for the boat. It all depends upon other things like the PRV setting. Although I run my system at about 15 psi 45psi will give you a very good power shower experience.

Noone has enough information to give you much more help that we have.

Thanks very much Tony, we were hoping it would be a matter of adjusting something or other and not the need to buy a brand new pump. I'm stuck regarding what to do about it because we're miles away on the Isle of Man and it would cost me about £250 to get there and back!

[CV32]

We had an East West for five years and did not suffer this issue. We did however have to adjust the pressure on the accumulator a few times over the period of time.

All the fittings on the East West were sourced from the UK/Ireland so they are all standard things you would see on any narrow boat. I think our pumps were Jabsco - the water pump was on a pre installed back board along with the accumulator. 

They do have calorifiers - ours was under the bed.

 

[David Shepherd]

Just now, CV32 said:

We had an East West for five years and did not suffer this issue. We did however have to adjust the pressure on the accumulator a few times over the period of time.

All the fittings on the East West were sourced from the UK/Ireland so they are all standard things you would see on any narrow boat. I think our pumps were Jabsco - the water pump was on a pre installed back board along with the accumulator. 

They do have calorifiers - ours was under the bed.

 

OK thank you very much. We're hoping it's just a simple adjustment and not the need for a new water pump

[BEngo]

I reckon this is one that will keep until you are able to spend a day sorting the problem out.  The pump will work and deliver water, albeit it is inconvenient to turn it off when not needed, so the boat is habitable.

When you go next take a tyre pressure gauge with you.  Onboard, sort out the details of the water system- the owners manual might help and find:

The water pump.  Get details of make and model off it if you can.  The Owners manual  may also help.

The accumulator ( cylindrical or spherical thing, usually red or blue, and near the pump)

The calorifier ( if fitted)

The pressure relief valve- usually adjacent to the calorifier.

Then do some diagnosis:

Turn the pump on  and let it run till it stops.  take the end cap off the accumulator and put the tyre pressure gauge on the valve in the end of the accumulator.  This is the pump cut-out pressure.  If it is 45 psi you need to reduce it.  Some pumps are adjustable.   The instructions for how may be found on the web when you know what sort of pump you have.  If not either a new pump or a separate pressure switch is needed.

Investigate the PRV- see if it is dripping/leaking overboard.  If so turn the cap on top and see if that will re-seat it.  If the pressure is 45 psi it will be very close to its normal setting so may be operating normally.., but still leaking.  In that even reduce the pump cut-off pressure

Check all the pipes and the calorifier and connections for leaks. Fix as required.

 

N

[David Shepherd]

10 minutes ago, BEngo said:

I reckon this is one that will keep until you are able to spend a day sorting the problem out.  The pump will work and deliver water, albeit it is inconvenient to turn it off when not needed, so the boat is habitable.

When you go next take a tyre pressure gauge with you.  Onboard, sort out the details of the water system- the owners manual might help and find:

The water pump.  Get details of make and model off it if you can.  The Owners manual  may also help.

The accumulator ( cylindrical or spherical thing, usually red or blue, and near the pump)

The calorifier ( if fitted)

The pressure relief valve- usually adjacent to the calorifier.

Then do some diagnosis:

Turn the pump on  and let it run till it stops.  take the end cap off the accumulator and put the tyre pressure gauge on the valve in the end of the accumulator.  This is the pump cut-out pressure.  If it is 45 psi you need to reduce it.  Some pumps are adjustable.   The instructions for how may be found on the web when you know what sort of pump you have.  If not either a new pump or a separate pressure switch is needed.

Investigate the PRV- see if it is dripping/leaking overboard.  If so turn the cap on top and see if that will re-seat it.  If the pressure is 45 psi it will be very close to its normal setting so may be operating normally.., but still leaking.  In that even reduce the pump cut-off pressure

Check all the pipes and the calorifier and connections for leaks. Fix as required.

 

N

Right OK thank you very much for that. I'm very tempted to contact the engineer involved and tell him just to leave things for the time being. I'm just hoping that things will be OK for my son who is taking her on 11th September and I won't be there to meet him.

[Tony Brooks]

It is also important that someone you trust finds the trap in the floor to the accommodation bilge and checks for any water. If there is any water down there it is possibly a leaking pipe joint so investigate further. If not the it is probably not a leak. The trap, if there is one, is usually right at the back in the bottom of a cupboard or under the rear steps. If there is not one it is always a good idea to cut one.

What is the general location of the boat because a member may be willing to meet your son and have a quick look. I certainly would if its within about 30 miles of Reading. If later will do I will be at the Blue Lias for a  club meet around 15th.

I agree with BEngo, nothing terrible should happen while it just suits in a marine and the boat is usable.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[David Shepherd]

58 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is also important that someone you trust finds the trap in the floor to the accommodation bilge and checks for any water. If there is any water down there it is possibly a leaking pipe joint so investigate further. If not the it is probably not a leak. The trap, if there is one, is usually right at the back in the bottom of a cupboard or under the rear steps. If there is not one it is always a good idea to cut one.

What is the general location of the boat because a member may be willing to meet your son and have a quick look. I certainly would if its within about 30 miles of Reading. If later will do I will be at the Blue Lias for a  club meet around 15th.

I agree with BEngo, nothing terrible should happen while it just suits in a marine and the boat is usable.

 

Just now, David Shepherd said:

 

 

Just now, David Shepherd said:

 

The boat is in Mercia Marina, Willington near Derby.

Just now, David Shepherd said:

 

 

[bizzard]

No mention of a carorifier tho, might not have a plessure lelief valve, so wong pump might not be. So might be reaking badly.

Edited August 22, 2017 by bizzard

[Tony Brooks]

37 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

 

 

The boat is in Mercia Marina, Willington near Derby.

 

Too far away for me then.

[David Shepherd]

24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Too far away for me then.

OK no problem but thanks for your advice

[Iain_S]

Before BEngo's checks above, I'd suggest taking a pressure reading at the accumulator with pump switched off and a tap open. If it's much above 15 psi, let some air out. Accumulators tend to come charged to a comparatively high pressure, and, if installed without adjustment, will do S.F.A..

Edited August 22, 2017 by Iain_S

[Tony Brooks]

But an over pressurised accumulator would not give the symptoms described unless the PRV pressure and the pump cut out pressure were so close the lack of accumulator volume allowed pressure pulses to jump the PRV. If it is an over pressurised accumulator there would normally have to be another fault that the accumulator could not cover up.

[CV32]

3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is also important that someone you trust finds the trap in the floor to the accommodation bilge and checks for any water. If there is any water down there it is possibly a leaking pipe joint so investigate further. If not the it is probably not a leak. The trap, if there is one, is usually right at the back in the bottom of a cupboard or under the rear steps. If there is not one it is always a good idea to cut one.

 

The whole floor comes up section by section - starting at the rear steps - two small screw in hooks will lift the first section.

[Bee]

I have just swapped my pump for a less fierce one, the old one was a deck wash pump at 45 psi (cheap from boat jumble years ago) but the pressure relief valve (3 bar) was always dripping and various joints would sometimes leak, ended up that a joint on a hose blew and the whole tank full of water ended up in the bilge, had to buy bottled water as the French canal had no water points for 3 days in any direction. Very likely the same problem. 10 minute job to swap another pump.

[Tony Brooks]

or adjust the cut out pressure if it is a UK sourced pump.