urgent please : engine will not start & must move !

[Tony Brooks]

Stop solenoids have one or two terminal/fly leads on them.

Vetus circuit breakers have two.

Relays have four terminals.

Therefore I think the OP is talking about a relay. If its a Lister it maybe the relay that "converts" the engine from insulated return to earth return for stopping and starting. If its anything else one must conclude thee relay is used to feed the stop solenoid for some reason. Without inspecting the boat I have no idea why but perhaps a previous owner thought it was a good idea or the cable running from the stop button/switch to the solenoid is too thin for its length & load so a relay was used to overcome this.

Very difficult to make sensible suggestions when the OPs do not give vital info like maker & model of engine etc.

[mross]

A loose relay wire can account for the failure to start OR they failure to stop, but not both, surely.  This is why I suggested that the solenoid might be sticking.

[Tony Brooks]

But as I said some Listers use a relay to switch from insulated to earth return (I am sure Biz and Richard can explain how, I have never got my head around it) and that would affect both starting and stopping. I still can not reconcile 4 terminals with a  stop solenoid. I think the relay some Vetus engines have at the back of the head can also give similar symptoms when it plays up.

[1st ade]

32 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 Without inspecting the boat I have no idea why but perhaps a previous owner thought it was a good idea ...

Or a previous "clever" owner has a push to make button breaking the "energise to run" solenoid supply for the confusion of a succession of later owners...

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

Or a previous "clever" owner has a push to make button breaking the "energise to run" solenoid supply for the confusion of a succession of later owners...

Absolutely but without the engine details we have no way of guessing if its an energise to stop or an energise to run solenoid.

[Laurie Booth]

17 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Agreed. Insulating tape is a surefire indication a bodger has been practicing his bodgery.  A competent electrician has no use for the hateful stuff. 

(Heatshrink sleeving is the stuff to use, if insulation needs to be added. )

I always use insulating tape on all my choc block connections but I will admit to being a bodger and incompetent electrical person.

Please note my wiring to my front headlight

[bizzard]

Lister ST2/3 Insulated electric start diagram, work it out for yourselves. Hefty solenoids used in place of puny relays.

[rusty69]

6 minutes ago, Laurie.Booth said:

I always use insulating tape on all my choc block connections but I will admit to being a bodger and incompetent electrical person.

Please note my wiring to my front headlight

Beware bodger Booth, the BCN bandit

[bizzard]

Self amalgamating tape for a proper solid waterproof insulation.

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks Mr B for the diagram.

[bizzard]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Thanks Mr B for the diagram.

There is another slightly later version but ony involves the charging system which eliminates No 13 and 12 because it has an ACR17 alternator instead of the old 11AC.

[Irob]

18 hours ago, chubby said:

Finally moored up after getting going . Thankyou to all who have replied . 

There is a relay at the end of a cable and it seems to be a dead end . I realised when i waggled this relay it had an effect on the starting system . Following an initial waggle tje dead engine started at the next attempt . But it would not shut off . I shut the engine off manually . Being certain this relay was the cause ( tho i have no idea what it is , why its there or why its a dead end ) i unwound some insulation tape . It revealed 4 spade connectors and one was disconnected . I pushed the 4 spade connectors firmly to make the connections good . When i then turned the key it started straight away . When i pressed the orange stop button it stopped straight away . I repeated this 3 times after which i decided it was fixed and i felt confident to move on and  get cruising . When i eventually stopped the engine shut down as normal . I have replaced the existing insulation tape but will look into a better way of covering the relay terminals . Im very reluctant to touch electrics as inexperience can probably make a bad situation worse but i was certain this relay was the issue but didnt know in what way and thought checking the connections was within my abilities and as it turned out it was nothing more than a disconnected terminal and easily fixed . 

Thankyou again to all who helped - i am always grateful for your time & thoughts 

Cheers

Well at least you found it and fixed it. Thats a pretty good peice of experience gained anyhow. Feather in your cap sir, well done. Suggest you write it in your boat log for future reference.

[chubby]

18 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm curious about this bit. Why do you think they need insulating? They are only 12v. 

Rhetorical question. No need to reply unless you want to discuss your thinking.

 

10 hours ago, cuthound said:

Perhaps to secure the relay in place, or to keep moisture out?

Who knows what is in some people's minds when they bodge things.

 

Apologies for the long delay replying . The reason i re covered the relay with electrical tape is because that is what found there before I checked the spade connections in the relay beneath . To someone who doesn't know otherwise and finds electrical tape covering an electrical connection it seems fairly reasonable to believe " this is correct " . Thats what i found and its worked without  any issues for the 4.5 years ive owned the boat . How many years this " bodge " worked before i took ownership i clearly cannot say . 

Not everyone in this world is knowledgeable on such matters . So they come into forums to ask at which point those responding can 

a) offer assistance based on thier experience. or 

b ) ridicule 

 

I have covered the connection with electrical tape because of my inexperience and because thats what i found there , so it seemed logical to replace it with the same . 

I dont see why boat ownership should be limited to those " who know about these things " . Whats the point of having knowledge and experience if you dont intend to share it ? 

I do the best i can . I learn when i can from the inevitable problems that will occur on my boat . A willingness to learn from those who know more is , i think , a good mentality to bring to boat ownership - infact its just a good mentality period . 

please accept my humble apologies for being unaware of the cowboyish nature of electrical tape .

Out of interest... what is it for ?

cheers 

 

 

[chubby]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Stop solenoids have one or two terminal/fly leads on them.

Vetus circuit breakers have two.

Relays have four terminals.

Therefore I think the OP is talking about a relay. If its a Lister it maybe the relay that "converts" the engine from insulated return to earth return for stopping and starting. If its anything else one must conclude thee relay is used to feed the stop solenoid for some reason. Without inspecting the boat I have no idea why but perhaps a previous owner thought it was a good idea or the cable running from the stop button/switch to the solenoid is too thin for its length & load so a relay was used to overcome this.

Very difficult to make sensible suggestions when the OPs do not give vital info like maker & model of engine etc.

Dear Mr Brooks 

Thankyou for your assistance. I apologise for not including the engine type . Clearly an oversight by myself . I thought i had put it in my OP . Not like me as i usually try to include as much info as possible when asking questions. It is a barrus shire 1650 . The relay had ( IIRC ) 4  spade connections beneath the electrical tape . 

Apologies again 

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by chubby

[chubby]

9 hours ago, bizzard said:

Self amalgamating tape for a proper solid waterproof insulation.

Thankyou Bizzard . I had none at the time i managed to fix the issue . I used electrical tape .... i am clearly a dunce & have been firmly made to feel such . 

As soon as i can i 'll get the tape you refer to and put right my errors 

cheers 

[bizzard]

9 minutes ago, chubby said:

Thankyou Bizzard . I had none at the time i managed to fix the issue . I used electrical tape .... i am clearly a dunce & have been firmly made to feel such . 

As soon as i can i 'll get the tape you refer to and put right my errors 

cheers 

When you get time it would be worth tightening up those spade terminals. Pull off each female terminal one at a time and very gently squeeze with pliers to close them up a touch, for a better, tighter connection.

[chubby]

Thankyou again  Bizzard . I did exactly that - a quick squeeze using pliers to make the connection more reliable before winding the ( temporary) electrical tape over the spade connections. 

Cheers

[bizzard]

9 minutes ago, chubby said:

Thankyou again  Bizzard . I did exactly that - a quick squeeze using pliers to make the connection more reliable before winding the ( temporary) electrical tape over the spade connections. 

Cheers

But you did pull the connector off to do it and then pushed them back on.  Squeezing them while still on the spade terminal will only make them slacker.

Edited August 22, 2017 by bizzard

[Tony Brooks]

11 hours ago, chubby said:

Dear Mr Brooks 

Thankyou for your assistance. I apologise for not including the engine type . Clearly an oversight by myself . I thought i had put it in my OP . Not like me as i usually try to include as much info as possible when asking questions. It is a barrus shire 1650 . The relay had ( IIRC ) 4  spade connections beneath the electrical tape . 

Apologies again 

 

No need to apologise, just accept that without that sort of info we can not know how the engine/boat is wired/equipped. Even with it one can never be sure about additions and alterations.

No we need a Barrus Shire owner who has worked it out to tell us what the relay does. I don't have any Shire wiring diagrams and have rarely come across them on boats I have worked on so don't know much about it. I am sure its a relay though with four terminals on it.

[WotEver]

15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

No need to apologise, just accept that without that sort of info we can not know how the engine/boat is wired/equipped. Even with it one can never be sure about additions and alterations.

No we need a Barrus Shire owner who has worked it out to tell us what the relay does. I don't have any Shire wiring diagrams and have rarely come across them on boats I have worked on so don't know much about it. I am sure its a relay though with four terminals on it.

My guess is that it's the 'starter' relay which feeds the 'heater' relay which feeds the 'start/stop' solenoid. That's from a quick glance at this manual (p58):

https://www.barrus.co.uk/media/3079/rdg603a20-issue-4-shire-38-40-45-50-canal-boat-manual.pdf