Boaty legal advisers? Issues with New and Used Boat co.

[Tuscan]

I would be minded to forget about the builder as you've given them amp,e time to sort the boat out. Talk to a solicitor taking all the paper and correspondence, he may well suggest engaging  surveyor to independently verify the issues then issue a legal claim. No point in  mucking about further. ( steering might just be difference in water depth?)

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

Possibly, but would the average motorist know a 1.6 engine from a 1.8?

I have a reasonably new car, but I have never checked to see if I have the 1.3 engine I am supposed to have!

George

But did you check the chassis number lined up with the log book ?

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Tuscan said:

I would be minded to forget about the builder as you've given them amp,e time to sort the boat out. Talk to a solicitor taking all the paper and correspondence, he may well suggest engaging  surveyor to independently verify the issues then issue a legal claim. No point in  mucking about further. ( steering might just be difference in water depth?)

Your purchase is covered by the Sale of Goods act 1979 which means it must be fit for purpose. Obviously too big for the small claims court so you must take legal advice which then will probably mean getting a surveyor (or two) in to verify the problems. Do this asap - the faster the better. It sounds like you have a real case so the legal and survey costs you incurr should be paid if the case is proven.

The sale of goods act 1979 means that if you can prove the defective item is not fit for purpose, you can demand your money back ......and not just get it repaired. One big issue for Sale of good act problems is safey. If there is any safety issue (think about it) then this is a killer in any court action. This act does not seem to be used for purchases when the purchase price is high, ie cars .....or wide beam boats, but it still applies. Your solicitor can advise. Find one that specialises in Sale of goods problems.

[furnessvale]

26 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But did you check the chassis number lined up with the log book ?

I bought a new car from a main dealer so I didn't.  I wonder how many hand on heart can say they do in those circumstances?

I will now do so!

George

[tomsk]

5 hours ago, Cpickle said:

Does anyone have experience of using legal advisers to solve issues with boat supply companies? I am having issues with New and Used Boat Company and whilst going down this route is really the last thing I want to do, I just cant seem to get any resolution through talking to / emailing the staff there, I have been chasing various issues for months and months now and I am fed up. I don't know what else to do at this point other than instruct lawyers.

Bought boat in May, its a new boat and I've been given the wrong Annex - meaning that I have the wrong CB number and have therefore insured and licenced the wrong boat. No manual still either. It took me 3 months just to get a signed copy of the contract back. I just want to be able to have all the correct materials in place should I ever want to sell the boat in the future. Also, if I have a crash or something now my insurance is worthless, and I'm paying monthly for the pleasure! 

I also have some technical issues with the boat, at times it just stops steering and there is no obvious reason why - clear prop etc. The dial shows that the engine is still engaged when its not. Also the fan belt is screeching for the first 10 mins every time I turn the engine on, and its getting progressively worse. Ok, yes things like the fan belt I could get fixed or fix myself - but the boat is under warranty and the contract states that they must be given the opportunity to fix problems themselves. I reported these problems within 10 days of getting the boat as per the contract, again months and no progress. 

Another issue is that there are things in the spec that I was told I was getting and I've actually been given something else, for example -  spec said engine upgraded to 65hp engine, I have a 60hp. When I questioned this at handover I was told something like - oh sometimes the company names the engine a higher number than the actual hp. That would be absolutely fine if that was the case but I was told it would be Vetus 65 and I have received a Canalline 60. I'm sure I would have bought the boat anyway - but being miss led just adds to my annoyance at the above. 

Thanks again all for the advice. 

Cait

Avoid going legal at all costs (which will be huge).

Kill them with kindness, be reasonable at all times, maintain cordial Client/Contractor relations and ensure any communications that effect contract are well considered and recorded.

Issue no further payments until YOU are satisfied that works completed match valuations submitted.

Take photos. Keep meticulous, factual records.

Entertain no nonsense, attend site as often as possible, be a self-assured, well-mannered nuisance.

If this fails your next move should be contacting Trading Standards armed with your meticulously kept records, pestering them weekly/daily as required for progress updates.  Their interest and ability to act will be directly proportionate to the completeness and clarity of your complaint and the information you can provide them with to support your complaint.

Engaging a half-competent solicitor will without doubt incur a four figure fee, up front which will probably cover the fee's for taking instruction, reading your records and perhaps an initial letter or two. If you have to get into 'appearance at court fees', even if your case is iron clad, and copper-bottomed you could be looking at five figures fees with the veryJ real possibility that the Judgement in your favour, with full costs awarded is against a bankrupt or similar.

Don't do it unless you have enough spare money and time to flush down the pan proving you were right.

[Drayke]

6 hours ago, Cpickle said:

Does anyone have experience of using legal advisers to solve issues with boat supply companies? I am having issues with New and Used Boat Company and whilst going down this route is really the last thing I want to do, I just cant seem to get any resolution through talking to / emailing the staff there, I have been chasing various issues for months and months now and I am fed up. I don't know what else to do at this point other than instruct lawyers.

Bought boat in May, its a new boat and I've been given the wrong Annex - meaning that I have the wrong CB number and have therefore insured and licenced the wrong boat. No manual still either. It took me 3 months just to get a signed copy of the contract back. I just want to be able to have all the correct materials in place should I ever want to sell the boat in the future. Also, if I have a crash or something now my insurance is worthless, and I'm paying monthly for the pleasure! 

I also have some technical issues with the boat, at times it just stops steering and there is no obvious reason why - clear prop etc. The dial shows that the engine is still engaged when its not. Also the fan belt is screeching for the first 10 mins every time I turn the engine on, and its getting progressively worse. Ok, yes things like the fan belt I could get fixed or fix myself - but the boat is under warranty and the contract states that they must be given the opportunity to fix problems themselves. I reported these problems within 10 days of getting the boat as per the contract, again months and no progress. 

Another issue is that there are things in the spec that I was told I was getting and I've actually been given something else, for example -  spec said engine upgraded to 65hp engine, I have a 60hp. When I questioned this at handover I was told something like - oh sometimes the company names the engine a higher number than the actual hp. That would be absolutely fine if that was the case but I was told it would be Vetus 65 and I have received a Canalline 60. I'm sure I would have bought the boat anyway - but being miss led just adds to my annoyance at the above. 

Thanks again all for the advice. 

Cait

Maybe you could try posting your problems/concerns on their Face Book Page.

[WotEver]

Just now, F DRAYKE said:

Maybe you could try posting your problems/concerns on their Face Book Page.

I'm sure they wouldn't stay up very long. 

[Peter Thornton]

Lots of good advice here, but for goodness sake make sure you've listed the issues and written a polite but firm letter before setting the law on them!

Leaving aside the engine issue it's possible that half an hour with the paperwork and an hours fettling could solve all that you list. Make sure that you let them know you are unhappy, and why, and what they have to do to make you happy.

[Dr Bob]

4 minutes ago, tomsk said:

Avoid going legal at all costs (which will be huge).

Kill them with kindness, be reasonable at all times, maintain cordial Client/Contractor relations and ensure any communications that effect contract are well considered and recorded.

Issue no further payments until YOU are satisfied that works completed match valuations submitted.

Take photos. Keep meticulous, factual records.

Entertain no nonsense, attend site as often as possible, be a self-assured, well-mannered nuisance.

If this fails your next move should be contacting Trading Standards armed with your meticulously kept records, pestering them weekly/daily as required for progress updates.  Their interest and ability to act will be directly proportionate to the completeness and clarity of your complaint and the information you can provide them with to support your complaint.

Engaging a half-competent solicitor will without doubt incur a four figure fee, up front which will probably cover the fee's for taking instruction, reading your records and perhaps an initial letter or two. If you have to get into 'appearance at court fees', even if your case is iron clad, and copper-bottomed you could be looking at five figures fees with the veryJ real possibility that the Judgement in your favour, with full costs awarded is against a bankrupt or similar.

Don't do it unless you have enough spare money and time to flush down the pan proving you were right.

....but the 'be nice' approach will never work.

First, do not appoint a 'half-competent solicitor'. Only a good one or even 'the best one'.

We bought a £140K sailing yacht from a UK broker 12 years ago (buying a Spanish made boat). Ours was fine. One of my friends saw it and ordered another a year later. That boat was a mess. Big problems in the build (grp layup). It was the last one the Spanish company made before selling/transfering its moulds to a Brazilian company. The build was so bad there was a significant problem with the strength of the keel (a big safety issue). If it was me, I would have sued the broker (a UK company) under the sale of goods act. The owner however decided on the 'be nice' approach and ended up (after a year of being nice) accepting an offer to pay £30K more and get the keel fixed!!!! If he had sued the broker (also a friend) then he would have forced him into bancruptcy (although assume insurance cover is there?). The broker would then have had to sue the manufacturer - although not sure if the manufacturer was going bust. In your case, try and work out who is the manufacturer and what is the supplier chain. Get your solicitor to work this out.

The problem here is we are talking big sums of money. Trading standards will do zip. ZIP!! They are not interested unless there are multiple complaints.

Talk to a good solicitor to find out what he thinks.

Be nice, and they will just laugh at you. I have seen this first hand and it does not work. However it may be the only way if a lawsuit means companies go bust and hence no recourse.

This is one of the problems of buying a new expensive boat that the uninitiated buyer does not realise. Whereas the sale of goods act covers 'all' purchases, it doesnt help when a 'return' due to 'not fit for purpose' will bancrupt the company supplying.

We bought our first NB this year, and went for a 15 year old used boat........not chancing buying a new one again!!!! Too much to go wrong .......and no confidence in who you buy off going bust!!!!! So glad we have an old boat.

 

[Peter Reed]

I believe that the biggest problem is the OP naming the company.

[tomsk]

3 minutes ago, Peter Thornton said:

Lots of good advice here, but for goodness sake make sure you've listed the issues and written a polite but firm letter before setting the law on them!

Leaving aside the engine issue it's possible that half an hour with the paperwork and an hours fettling could solve all that you list. Make sure that you let them know you are unhappy, and why, and what they have to do to make you happy.

Agreed.

Having actually managed to digest your initial post properly without doggy/wife/children distractions there is no way I would take the solicitor route. Keep pestering them, using Trading Standards if all else fails.  Above all be sure of your facts, don't let it get personal and don't give up.

You may well not end up with the boat specified but if you keep up the pressure they may refund enough money to make you go away.

If so, reject their initial offer out of hand unless it substantially exceeds the realistically adjusted costs of your boat supplied 'as is' whether that be a cost adjustment regarding the motor supplied against that specified, which may be a comparable unit cost/quality-wise, (someone on here will have the Trade 'Crated Motor' costs down to the last penny :)) and the costs of rectifying any other defects.

I think if you are going to get any sort of resolution this is the way it will go. but you must be doggedly determined and focused.

[tomsk]

22 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

....but the 'be nice' approach will never work.

First, do not appoint a 'half-competent solicitor'. Only a good one or even 'the best one'.

We bought a £140K sailing yacht from a UK broker 12 years ago (buying a Spanish made boat). Ours was fine. One of my friends saw it and ordered another a year later. That boat was a mess. Big problems in the build (grp layup). It was the last one the Spanish company made before selling/transfering its moulds to a Brazilian company. The build was so bad there was a significant problem with the strength of the keel (a big safety issue). If it was me, I would have sued the broker (a UK company) under the sale of goods act. The owner however decided on the 'be nice' approach and ended up (after a year of being nice) accepting an offer to pay £30K more and get the keel fixed!!!! If he had sued the broker (also a friend) then he would have forced him into bancruptcy (although assume insurance cover is there?). The broker would then have had to sue the manufacturer - although not sure if the manufacturer was going bust. In your case, try and work out who is the manufacturer and what is the supplier chain. Get your solicitor to work this out.

The problem here is we are talking big sums of money. Trading standards will do zip. ZIP!! They are not interested unless there are multiple complaints.

Talk to a good solicitor to find out what he thinks.

Be nice, and they will just laugh at you. I have seen this first hand and it does not work. However it may be the only way if a lawsuit means companies go bust and hence no recourse.

This is one of the problems of buying a new expensive boat that the uninitiated buyer does not realise. Whereas the sale of goods act covers 'all' purchases, it doesnt help when a 'return' due to 'not fit for purpose' will bancrupt the company supplying.

We bought our first NB this year, and went for a 15 year old used boat........not chancing buying a new one again!!!! Too much to go wrong .......and no confidence in who you buy off going bust!!!!! So glad we have an old boat.

 

Agreed regarding legal advice, if you're reduced to pull the legal trigger engage the 'best' brief you can afford ('best' not necessarily being the most expensive).

I was trying to highlight the inevitable costs attached to engaging m'learned friends regardless of competence. Money that would be better expended on boaty things.

If I had somehow been blatantly stiffed via smoke an mirrors  for a six figure sum having done my initial due diligence, entered into Contract, conducted inspections against valuation applications/staged payments with a clear audit trail and so forth and with no other chance of recompense I would have no qualms at throwing ten grand at the problem.

I don't think this is the case here.

I would advise against expending a low five figure sum in professional fees in pursuit of a high value four figure sum in all cases, regardless of rights, wrongs or morally correct and understandable apoplectic indignance.

 

 

[MtB]

On 14/08/2017 at 22:47, Dr Bob said:

 

This is one of the problems of buying a new expensive boat that the uninitiated buyer does not realise. Whereas the sale of goods act covers 'all' purchases, it doesnt help when a 'return' due to 'not fit for purpose' will bancrupt the company supplying.

We bought our first NB this year, and went for a 15 year old used boat........not chancing buying a new one again!!!! Too much to go wrong .......and no confidence in who you buy off going bust!!!!! So glad we have an old boat.

 

 

So totally, totally agree.

Time and time again I suggest to newbies asking on here for advice about ordering a new boat, that they buy one a year or two old instead they can see, touch, feel and get surveyed, for exactly all these reasons. A used boat with all the problems ironed out makes SO much more sense. 

So for the OP my advice is rather like the Irishman who on being asked for directions, said "If I was going there, I wouldn't be starting from here".  Don't buy a new one in the first place, and avoid all risk of getting snared up like this.

 

[Cpickle]

Thanks everyone for your advice, all sensible points. And to the people asking me did I not check the engine, well if you read my post you will see that I did query it at handover and was given a strange answer, he did tell me he would follow up with the office, but like everything else I didn't get a response. To those saying I should not have named the company - this is really no different to leaving a review on their website, I have proof of everything I have mentioned, not worried about libel. If New & Used Boat Co are reading this, I would be more than happy to remove my posts once my issues are sorted. 

I really do want to avoid legal because I don't really like being adversarial generally, it usually just makes things unpleasant and rarely speeds things up. Also, its probably going to cost hundreds/thousands that I may not get back. Its so frustrating because it all seems like it could be really simple to sort out if only they would respond to me, just dig out the right paperwork, and send an engineer down, perhaps as a gesture of goodwill they could also pay any fees I might incur in changing the insurance and license. The engine issue tbh is at the bottom of the list. I just want to get everything in order and move on so I can enjoy my boat. 

I will send a firm letter to the owner, without mentioning legal for now, cc the people I've been dealing with and see what happens. I will also write something on their Facebook, someone on there does seem to be responding to reviews. 

If in a month this still isn't any closer to being sorted - do any of you have any recommended lawyers that deal with boat stuff?

Thanks again to you all - really helpful as this community always is.

[tomsk]

36 minutes ago, Cpickle said:

Thanks everyone for your advice, all sensible points. And to the people asking me did I not check the engine, well if you read my post you will see that I did query it at handover and was given a strange answer, he did tell me he would follow up with the office, but like everything else I didn't get a response. To those saying I should not have named the company - this is really no different to leaving a review on their website, I have proof of everything I have mentioned, not worried about libel. If New & Used Boat Co are reading this, I would be more than happy to remove my posts once my issues are sorted. 

I really do want to avoid legal because I don't really like being adversarial generally, it usually just makes things unpleasant and rarely speeds things up. Also, its probably going to cost hundreds/thousands that I may not get back. Its so frustrating because it all seems like it could be really simple to sort out if only they would respond to me, just dig out the right paperwork, and send an engineer down, perhaps as a gesture of goodwill they could also pay any fees I might incur in changing the insurance and license. The engine issue tbh is at the bottom of the list. I just want to get everything in order and move on so I can enjoy my boat. 

I will send a firm letter to the owner, without mentioning legal for now, cc the people I've been dealing with and see what happens. I will also write something on their Facebook, someone on there does seem to be responding to reviews. 

If in a month this still isn't any closer to being sorted - do any of you have any recommended lawyers that deal with boat stuff?

Thanks again to you all - really helpful as this community always is.

I would put pen to paper regardless of any prior manoeuvring or unpleasantness,  clearly setting out in your opening paragraph that you consider the slate wiped clean providing a sensible, grown up conversation can be had regarding the things you're unhappy about.

Then itemise them (and get the work priced by someone sensible

Insist any obvious critical safety and paperwork shortfalls are addressed at their costs.

Prioritise inarguable defects that clearly have significant cost/quality/on-cost implications

Be clear and concise, fair and reasonable, full and final.

We are not in the business of quibbling over minor non-conformances, providing the substitute material used is acceptable nor are we interested in issuing further defect schedules because we didn't do the job properly first time out.

Omit nothing important at this stage, by all means detail any and all cost-neutralish non-conformances you can live with for information/comment but don't moan or get bogged down in things that don't really matter.

Be pragmatic and prepared to give a little.

Concentrate on the important stuff.

 

 

 

[BruceinSanity]

I'm surprised there isn't a FB group for folk in this position with this company, a bit of mutual support would go a long way to help. Legal situation is complicated by the fact that N&U are acting as agents for the builders.

[mross]

13 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Well a libel lawsuit will only be won if what is being said is not true.

In the common law of libel, the claimant has the burden only of proving that the statement was made by the defendant, and that it was defamatory. ... The claimant is not required to prove that the statement was false. Instead, proving the truth of the statement is an affirmative defence available to the defendant.  UK libel law is complex - don't take chances!

Any solicitor can give a 30-minute consultation which is normally free of charge.

[Athy]

20 minutes ago, mross said:

In the common law of libel, the claimant has the burden only of proving that the statement was made by the defendant, and that it was defamatory. ... The claimant is not required to prove that the statement was false. Instead, proving the truth of the statement is an affirmative defence available to the defendant.  UK libel law is complex - don't take chances!

Any solicitor can give a 30-minute consultation which is normally free of charge.

Your point is interesting but I'm not sure if it's right. Surely a statement can only be defamatory (i.e. unjustly injurious to a person's good name) if it's not true. So, for example, if you say that someone beats his wife, and he doesn't, that's defamatory; but if he does, it's simply the truth.

[mango]

16 hours ago, Cpickle said:

Also the fan belt is screeching for the first 10 mins every time I turn the engine on, and its getting progressively worse. Ok, yes things like the fan belt I could get fixed or fix myself - but the boat is under warranty and the contract states that they must be given the opportunity to fix problems themselves. I reported these problems within 10 days of getting the boat as per the contract, again months and no progress.

This sort of problem is a matter of general maintenance and will not be covered by a guarantee, warranty or the Consumer Rights Act 2015.  It is vital to focus on the key issues.

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, mango said:

This sort of problem is a matter of general maintenance and will not be covered by a guarantee, warranty or the Consumer Rights Act 2015.  It is vital to focus on the key issues.

As an aside it also suggests severely discharged batteries which will no doubt be another complaint shortly... "The batteries died within 6 months"...

[mross]

36 minutes ago, Athy said:

Your point is interesting but I'm not sure if it's right. Surely a statement can only be defamatory (i.e. unjustly injurious to a person's good name) if it's not true. So, for example, if you say that someone beats his wife, and he doesn't, that's defamatory; but if he does, it's simply the truth.

But my poiint is that the defendant has to prove that the statement is true.  It might be quite hard to prove that he beat his wife.  This is why celebrities use UK law to sue for libel.  The law changed in 2014 to give some protection to websites but is still quite complicated.  I'm not a lawyer so I am only going by my understanding.  Many websites on the subject are misinformed or don't apply to the UK.

[Athy]

3 minutes ago, mross said:

 I'm not a lawyer so I am only going by my understanding. 

Likewise; both views are perfectly reasonable but it's possible that, being based on common sense, neither is right!

[Tim Lewis]

14 hours ago, Tonka said:

But surely you accepted the boat when new. Did you not check the engine for example was the model specced. If I went to buy a Ford Focus, I would check that I was getting the Focus I specced before driving away and then think about getting a lawyer/

When I bought my Ford Focus I took it on complete trust that I got the engine as advertised. I have absolutely no interest in opening the bonnet except to fill the washer bottle.

Tim

[blackrose]

13 hours ago, Peter Thornton said:

Lots of good advice here, but for goodness sake make sure you've listed the issues and written a polite but firm letter before setting the law on them!

Leaving aside the engine issue it's possible that half an hour with the paperwork and an hours fettling could solve all that you list. Make sure that you let them know you are unhappy, and why, and what they have to do to make you happy.

I tend to agree. How far up the chain of command at NBC have you actually gone? Have you just been talking to the grunts at the bottom? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but if I have problems with people working for organisations I ask to speak to the person that they normally report to and just keep going until someone starts to take things seriously.

I bought my boat from NBC and got several things rectified under warranty. NBC did one job themselves and I spoke to the MD who agreed that I could get my own people in and they would settle for the other job - but he wasn't happy when he got the bill! This was 12 years ago so I don't have his contact details anymore and he may no longer be there anyway. I missed one other job that should have been done under warranty, but that's life.

[Kawayuppie]

19 hours ago, Cpickle said:

Regarding the steering, yes we are newbies, however this was not a problem when steering a stretch from Watford to roughly Bulls Bridge, but started there and has been getting progressively worse. At first, we thought it was just us, but then there would be times where the boat would be heading in one direction and when trying to get it to turn the wheel would stop moving halfway toward its normal maximum point, and it would barely turn. I have no idea what thats about. 

Sounds like your hydraulic steering is coming apart. With my boat, which was brand new, the builders had not tightened up the bolt that connects the hydraulic ram to the arm that connects to the rudder. 

As the connection unscrewed the steering got progressively worse. Until it dropped off and we were adrift in the River Great Ouse about a mile from Offord Lock!

i suggest you better look at your steering before using the boat.