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Engine won't start!


RichM

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Morning,

I have a problem whereby my Barrus Shire 30hp engine won't start. I took her to the other side of the marina to fill up with Diesel and since then, the engine won't start... On the last successful startup, it seemed hesitant to start briefly but at the time I put it down to not turning the key for long enough. 

The initial symptoms seemed like a flat battery though the gauges read fine. I managed to find my multi-meter this morning and have tested the batteries, they are all reading over 12 volts and they're approx 6 months old. I even put them on charge overnight to be sure. Have also tried jumping from the leisure batteries and from someone else's boat but still nothing... Have given the starter a good whack and have also connected the starter directly to a battery via jump leads to bypass the circuitry in-between.

I've recorded the sound which you can hear by clicking here

The alarm buzzer you hear is the ignition alarm that always sounds when the ignition is on.

Any advice appreciated!

Cheers

RichM

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The batteries are knackered!  They don't have enough energy left to turn the engine over.  I suggest you buy some cheapos and then figure out why they were not getting fully charged.  Perhaps the battery charger has failed or the alternator or both!  Get someone to give them a good charge for 24 hours but I'm not optimistic.  Something has flattened them and unless it was very recent they have probably suffered.

Edited by mross
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4 minutes ago, mross said:

The batteries are knackered!  They don't have enough energy left to turn the engine over.  I suggest you buy some cheapos and then figure out why they were not getting fully charged.  Perhaps the battery charger has failed or the alternator or both!  Get someone to give them a good charge for 24 hours but I'm not optimistic.  Something has flattened them and unless it was very recent they have probably suffered.

A few people have said this but what I don't understand though is that they're not that old. I just checked the receipt now and I bought them 4 months ago. Also, them multi meter shows they're all above 12 volts with the lowest reading of 12.30 volts. 

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Check the battery voltage when you have other loads on, lights, fridge etc. 

I did that when taking the last reading. 

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How many batteries in the bank Rich? Does your engine start off one starter battery or use the domestics?

Just trying to understand why the batts you tested seem fine, but the sound would indicate flat battery. Maybe the domestic bank is good, but the starer batt is dead.

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Are your jump leads of good quality? more often than not cheap ones usually with ally cables are useless. Connect The black- cable to neg- on battery, the other end of it to starter body or engine mass close to the starter. On the starter solenoid there should be two large terminal nuts, one of which has the red pos+ cable attached to it, the other one connects to the starters motor. First connect your Pos red jump cable from the battery to this lower terminal nut, the one which serves the starters motor. The starter motor should spin up briskly without engaging with the engines ring gear. Now put the red jump lead onto the other pos+ terminal nut, the one with the red cable on it. Along side these large terminal nuts will be a small terminal nut or spade terminal with a thin wire on it which comes from the starter key or button. Get a short bit of wire and fix it to this small terminal and then touch the large terminal nut with the red+ cable on it with the other end of it. Everything should be by-passed and the starter should work and whip the engine round. But I expect you've already done this.   If so, re check all your cable connections. And mind not to touch the engine mass or starter body with the pos+ jump lead clamp, or you'll get a firework display.

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Since you have used jump leads direct too the starter and a number of different batteries I would say the only thing left is to check the engine turns freely and if so it's your starter. Can you post a picture? If so I could have a better idea of how to confirm it. Different starters fail for different reasons and a picture would allow me to identify it.

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1 hour ago, RichM said:

A few people have said this but what I don't understand though is that they're not that old. I just checked the receipt now and I bought them 4 months ago. Also, them multi meter shows they're all above 12 volts with the lowest reading of 12.30 volts. 

I did that when taking the last reading. 

"Above 12 volts" isn't good enough and 12.3 volts is only about 50% charged.  Starter battery should read 12.6v at least.   

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2 hours ago, Laurie.Booth said:

Please check the battery contacts.

Done though would you recommend disconnecting everything, clean up and re-connect?

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Dirty ignition switch/solanoid connectors? 

Pulled apart the ignition switch, all looked ok. How would I check solanoid connectors?

2 hours ago, AllanC said:

How many batteries in the bank Rich? Does your engine start off one starter battery or use the domestics?

Just trying to understand why the batts you tested seem fine, but the sound would indicate flat battery. Maybe the domestic bank is good, but the starer batt is dead.

When we bought the boat, it had a bank of 4 leisure batteries and no starter.

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

He did try a jump start from both his domestic and another boat. I would look at the isolator switch and check voltages on the started terminal while trying to crank.

I tried connecting a positive jump lead to the starter directly and the negative to the engine block. In doing so I'd imagine I'd be bypassing the isolators?

1 hour ago, Heffalump said:

Check connections and earths, a bad connection would allow a bit of power through but not enough

I've done this as best as I can without disconnecting everything. Everything appears securely fastned and the terminals on the batteries are almost new.

 

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Are your jump leads of good quality? more often than not cheap ones usually with ally cables are useless. Connect The black- cable to neg- on battery, the other end of it to starter body or engine mass close to the starter. On the starter solenoid there should be two large terminal nuts, one of which has the red pos+ cable attached to it, the other one connects to the starters motor. First connect your Pos red jump cable from the battery to this lower terminal nut, the one which serves the starters motor. The starter motor should spin up briskly without engaging with the engines ring gear. Now put the red jump lead onto the other pos+ terminal nut, the one with the red cable on it. Along side these large terminal nuts will be a small terminal nut or spade terminal with a thin wire on it which comes from the starter key or button. Get a short bit of wire and fix it to this small terminal and then touch the large terminal nut with the red+ cable on it with the other end of it. Everything should be by-passed and the starter should work and whip the engine round. But I expect you've already done this.   If so, re check all your cable connections. And mind not to touch the engine mass or starter body with the pos+ jump lead clamp, or you'll get a firework display.

Jump leads are OK, rated to start a 2000cc car and the engine in the boat is 1300cc. I've done all of this bar the short wire suggestion. (will find one)

1 hour ago, Sir Nibble said:

Since you have used jump leads direct too the starter and a number of different batteries I would say the only thing left is to check the engine turns freely and if so it's your starter. Can you post a picture? If so I could have a better idea of how to confirm it. Different starters fail for different reasons and a picture would allow me to identify it.

Thanks, I have uploaded some below. Not sure how to crank it manually though. 

1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

"Above 12 volts" isn't good enough and 12.3 volts is only about 50% charged.  Starter battery should read 12.6v at least.   

Thanks, I have re-tested them. The only one reading 12.3 volts is the one which is not in use. The others read 12.6.


Photos attached.

Video: 

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I had this problem on my diesel genny, it turned out to be two problems, first was the negative connection to the engine so check all connections!  Second was my starter shorted out internally, if your starter gets hot very quickly and using a lot of amps (checked via a clamp meter) it may be this.   One quick method to test is move the starter battery close to the engine and run directly a new negative and positive directly to the engine and starter on cleaned up cables.  This reduces the amount of connections to four, and if it works you know it’s a dodgy cabling somewhere.

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8 minutes ago, RichM said:

 

IMG_0184.JPG

Just about the only thing that goes wrong with those starters is contact wear, and it doesn't sound at all like that. However, that main positive connection looks to me like it's been getting warm so I would take a damned good look at that. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I had this problem on my diesel genny, it turned out to be two problems, first was the negative connection to the engine so check all connections!  Second was my starter shorted out internally, if your starter gets hot very quickly and using a lot of amps (checked via a clamp meter) it may be this.   One quick method to test is move the starter battery close to the engine and run directly a new negative and positive directly to the engine and starter on cleaned up cables.  This reduces the amount of connections to four, and if it works you know it’s a dodgy cabling somewhere.

Did you disconnect, cleanup & reconnect all the connections?

15 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Just about the only thing that goes wrong with those starters is contact wear, and it doesn't sound at all like that. However, that main positive connection looks to me like it's been getting warm so I would take a damned good look at that. 

 

What should I do with it specifically? 

I am only good at fixing things if it has a keyboard and generally doesn't involve getting dirty, though I am keen to learn. :)

Cheers all

RichM

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49 minutes ago, RichM said:

Did you disconnect, cleanup & reconnect all the connections?

I half heartily did and still had the problem.   You can’t redo the connections half heartily!   I ended up relocating the negative on the starter motor bolt as it was in a poor place before.

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Just a thought Rich how about the red cut off switch breaking up. 

I say that I lost my 12v domestic side while out on the canal a few months ago lights dimmed then just stopped working and that was the red cut off switch. My son rode back to the marina shop got a new one all worked well. 

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On 8/13/2017 at 22:23, rustydiver said:

Just a thought Rich how about the red cut off switch breaking up. 

I say that I lost my 12v domestic side while out on the canal a few months ago lights dimmed then just stopped working and that was the red cut off switch. My son rode back to the marina shop got a new one all worked well. 

Thank you. I gave that a thought but I also took a jump lead direct from the battery to the starter in attempt to bypass everything in between with the negative from the battery to the engine block but still no joy. :(

Now I'm back at work on a late shift meaning I don't have many daylight hours to troubleshoot it much further and I need her up and running asap. I'm currently in someone else's berth, albeit with permission. I guess I will have to bite the bullet and splash out so I've got a marine engineer coming out on Wednesday to have a look. I'm hoping it won't be anything serious as she's booked in to be dry docked come the autumn. 

Thanks all! :)

RichM

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On 13/08/2017 at 11:09, RichM said:

A few people have said this but what I don't understand though is that they're not that old. I just checked the receipt now and I bought them 4 months ago. Also, them multi meter shows they're all above 12 volts with the lowest reading of 12.30 volts. 

I did that when taking the last reading. 

 

Check the battery voltage when starting. If 9V or much below then they are toast.

If above 9V check terminal voltage on starter when starting.

If the starter is getting a good voltage then I would suggest the brushes need looking at as you're probably using just one one the series/parallel windings.

Anything else is wiring or switch issues. And can be checked for volt drop when starting.

Others might advise on the success/fail criteria of voltages.

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7 hours ago, RichM said:

Thank you. I gave that a thought but I also took a jump lead direct from the battery to the starter in attempt to bypass everything in between with the negative from the battery to the engine block but still no joy. :(

Now I'm back at work on a late shift meaning I don't have many daylight hours to troubleshoot it much further and I need her up and running asap. I'm currently in someone else's berth, albeit with permission. I guess I will have to bite the bullet and splash out so I've got a marine engineer coming out on Wednesday to have a look. I'm hoping it won't be anything serious as she's booked in to be dry docked come the autumn. 

Thanks all! :)

RichM

Stop messing around with jump leads with crocodile clips on the end to bypass to test if a dodge connection.  You need to do it with proper cables and eye bolt connections.

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