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jddevel

VSR or battery to battery charger

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jddevel    18

Just been watching a 12 volt planet video regarding VSRs and battery to battery chargers and  noted the fact that a VSR does not really work efficiently with a modern Euro 5 or Euro 6 emmisions compliant engine alternator. I`ve a 2016 installed Beta 38. Being Saturday unlikely Beta are available to advise and thought I`d ask the forum before waiting until Monday if any one here has a view/experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhyDwuXB0jI

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nicknorman    1,925

Yes this is the point, car alternators are controlled by the ECU. Boat engines don't have an ECU let alone an ECU-controlled alternator.

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jddevel    18
10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

What makes you think that you have a 'smart' alternator - does it have an external ECU regulator?

Not explained myself properly. That was the question I was indirectly asking. Basically what is the chance of my Beta 38 having a "smart" alternator? From your reactions it would appear  NONE and that the VSR I`ve purchased is satisfactory.

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nicknorman    1,925
6 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Not explained myself properly. That was the question I was indirectly asking. Basically what is the chance of my Beta 38 having a "smart" alternator? From your reactions it would appear  NONE and that the VSR I`ve purchased is satisfactory.

Since you have seperate engine and domestic alternators, what's the VSR for? Bow thruster?

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13 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes this is the point, car alternators are controlled by the ECU. Boat engines don't have an ECU let alone an ECU-controlled alternator.

 

What? Not even my Kelvin?

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frangar    287
19 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes this is the point, car alternators are controlled by the ECU. Boat engines don't have an ECU let alone an ECU-controlled alternator.

Let's be thankful for that...I'm sure it's not far off along with having to have an adblue tank and a dpf unit etc. I'm sticking with my JP! 

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by'eck    80
1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Yes this is the point, car alternators are controlled by the ECU. Boat engines don't have an ECU let alone an ECU-controlled alternator.

and won't have for many years to come if ever, not in bespoke narrowboats at least which virtually all are to some degree.

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Loddon    216
1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

Since you have seperate engine and domestic alternators, what's the VSR for? Bow thruster?

I have the same and have a VSR. The sense wire is connected to the domestics. When on shoreline it enables both domestics and starter to be charged from one charger. Also the solar does the same. Finally it parallelels both alternators allowing slightly higher charge rate, only got a 90 and a 70 alternators not a monster 175.

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frangar    287
16 minutes ago, by'eck said:

and won't have for many years to come if ever, not in bespoke narrowboats at least which virtually all are to some degree.

Don't count on that. It will be down to legislation for engines...the narrowboat market is tiny compared to other users. 

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WotEver    636
4 hours ago, Loddon said:

I have the same and have a VSR. The sense wire is connected to the domestics. When on shoreline it enables both domestics and starter to be charged from one charger. Also the solar does the same. Finally it parallelels both alternators allowing slightly higher charge rate, only got a 90 and a 70 alternators not a monster 175.

I can see the use for shore power and solar but can't see it doing anything when charging from Alternators. By the time the domestics are up above the Switch-on voltage the alternator is just about finishing Bulk and about to switch to Absorption, so a 2nd alternator isn't going to do much. If the small alternator has a slightly higher Absorption voltage it can switch off the big one and end up increasing the charge time. 

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dmr    263
1 hour ago, WotEver said:

I can see the use for shore power and solar but can't see it doing anything when charging from Alternators. By the time the domestics are up above the Switch-on voltage the alternator is just about finishing Bulk and about to switch to Absorption, so a 2nd alternator isn't going to do much. If the small alternator has a slightly higher Absorption voltage it can switch off the big one and end up increasing the charge time. 

You might be correct here. Lots of people use a VSR to give alternator paralleling but to work well the relay needs to switch on at quite a low voltage, perhaps just over 13v,

...and ideally needs to turn off again at a higher voltage, maybe 14.4, so that the starter battery is not subject to the possibly higher absorption voltage of the domestic batteries which could be 14.8 to 15 for Trojans. I wonder if Smartbank does this?. I sidestep this by having a simple switch (and a bit of relay logic) to parallel the alternators but I have to remember to turn it off once in absorption mode. I might automate this one day.

.................Dave

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Loddon    216
6 hours ago, WotEver said:

I can see the use for shore power and solar but can't see it doing anything when charging from Alternators. By the time the domestics are up above the Switch-on voltage the alternator is just about finishing Bulk and about to switch to Absorption, so a 2nd alternator isn't going to do much. If the small alternator has a slightly higher Absorption voltage it can switch off the big one and end up increasing the charge time. 

connect voltage is 13.3 so relatively  low, both alternators have exactly  the same absorption voltage 14.6 as on the larger of the two (prestolite) the volts are set using a trim pot. When I say exactly I mean to two decimal points measured on a fluke.:mellow:

Edited by Loddon

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WotEver    636
8 minutes ago, Loddon said:

both alternators have exactly  the same absorption voltage 14.6 as on the larger of the two (prestolite) the volts are set using a trim pot. When I say exactly I mean to two decimal points measured on a fluke.:mellow:

It'd probably be worth setting the smaller one at a point or two lower then. That way you can be sure that it won't be the big one shutting down during absorption. 

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jddevel    18
13 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Since you have seperate engine and domestic alternators, what's the VSR for? Bow thruster?

Advice from forum contributor whilst discussing bowthrusters and my possible wiring/equipment needs.

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by'eck    80
On 12/08/2017 at 09:32, frangar said:

Don't count on that. It will be down to legislation for engines...the narrowboat market is tiny compared to other users. 

which was my point, although a double edged sword I guess :(

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frangar    287
6 hours ago, by'eck said:

which was my point, although a double edged sword I guess :(

I suspect that legislation will affect all diesel engines irrespective of the end use. I've noticed that Sainsbury's is now stocking AdBlue in the motoring section. It's not just HGV engines using it now....

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Alan de Enfield    1,031
On ‎12‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 07:32, jddevel said:

Being Saturday unlikely Beta are available to advise and thought I`d ask the forum before waiting until Monday if any one here has a view/experience.

What was the response from Beta ?

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jddevel    18
23 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

What was the response from Beta

Sudden change of plans. Boat being moved this week means  7 to 9 days so no time to discuss it with them. Boats going to a marina to get second fix to electrics, a little welding and engine commisioning.

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Alan de Enfield    1,031
7 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Sudden change of plans. Boat being moved this week means  7 to 9 days so no time to discuss it with them. Boats going to a marina to get second fix to electrics, a little welding and engine commisioning.

Not even 2 minutes for a telephone call ?

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jddevel    18
11 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Not even 2 minutes for a telephone call ?

Trouble is that my mobile has no signal at the boat - not much good where I live at the best of times plus you try and get hold of them before 8 and after 8/9 at night. Anyway on the lorry late this afternoon and now a couple of days to collect thoughts before following to the marina to finish it off.

 

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