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Peppers

Electrics set up inc. incinerator toilet!

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Peppers    4

We're at that stage of our widebeam fit out where we need to get all our electrical ducks in order. I'm a technological nightmare so I'm really trying to understand everything but might be a little slow...

We're continuous cruising and so won't be hooked up to shoreline power. I definitely want solar so recommendations there are really welcome. We'll be working and living aboard and would like to make our set up as beefy as we can to cover as many ills as possible. As I've said elsewhere for us that means:

12v fridge, pumps, horn, head lamps, led's throughout, speakers, phone charging, laptop charging, tool charging, hoover charging, anything else that fancies charging, printer, toasty grill thing, the occasional iron (highly rare). We're going to have a washing machine and only use it when we cruise (mother in law in kindly excited about the idea of doing our laundry and that is too good to pass up). I've been trying to find out what this equates to usage wise but can't find a calculator.

The main thing that makes us tricky is I'm really rather keen on the idea of an incinerator toilet. I know they are more expensive, but if it saves having to have another cassette vs. pump out debate it might just be worth the money...and the benefit of it solving the waste disposal issue of course. They are just so electric hungry! I fancy this one, although their english version website is down at the moment so apologies for the dutch - http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/comfort/

I suppose in many ways what I'm asking is does anyone else have an incinerator toilet or even heard of someone attempting to use one on continuous cruise?

And if you could set up a robust and excellent electrical set up from scratch what would you turn to?? I want to think big and work down from there...

Thanks in advance :)

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nbfiresprite    56

You soon kill your batteres, if you use the AC electric version. I have used these loo's in Norway, this is one loo you don't want to drop your wallet in. For caravan or boat use, there is 12 volt version which uses LPG for the burner

Cinderella Motion (Caravan and boat)

Stand-by power requirements 0.5 Amp
Incineration Electrical Power Requirement 1.3 Amp
Gas consumption about 110 gr. Per combustion
Fan 12V DC
Gas propane (30 mbar)
Power supply 12V DC / 4 Amp (11-14.4V)

 

Edited by nbfiresprite

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Jess--    62

the site gives little info about the details of them, it gives us consumption per burn but doesn't tell us how often it burns

gut reaction says they are just too power hungry

energy consumption (per combustion) 0.8 - 1.5 kWh is huge on a boat with no shoreline

if we take the worst case (1.5 kwh) that is equivalent to pulling roughly 75A (assuming 12v batteries) for an hour, on my boat (and a lot of other members boats*) that would mean the entire battery bank below 50% charge and in desperate need of recharging after 2 burns.

put it another way... given charging rates that a lot of members quote on here you will have to run the engine for 1-2 hours every time your toilet burns it's waste (if that's every time it is used there probably aren't enough hours in a day)

A better option may be their gas fueled version although this may prove expensive on gas usage

 

(*) A lot of members seem to have the same setup of 3 x 110 AH batteries, going to a max of 50% discharge this gives 165 AH that are usable, your toilet would use up to 75 AH every time it burns

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mrsmelly Contributor    1,170

I wont mention the incinerator toilet just ask yourself why no one else has one? All the other stuff can be done two major ways one is a stand alone quiet diesel genie installation and one is what I have a Travel power run off the propulsion engine that does everything including ironing and washing machine whilst also charging batteries and moving boat at same time if you wish. Another way would be big alternators and a big inverter this also can work but whilst you are taking big loads for your iron and washing wachine heaters for instance there is nowt much left to charge your batteries.

The most expensive being the stand alone gennie which also means running two diesel engines but it also gives more power of the three ways.

Do you want to live on a boat or do you realy wish you were in a bungalow? that will give you some idea of which way to go. I still have friends living onboard loving it having a great life with absolutely no mains power whatsoever. It wouldn't suit me but you see what I mean. You may well get some well meaning hobby boaters giving their advice on the subject bless em but remember they toddle off home to their national grid existence when it gets rainy or cold so take it with a pinch of salt.

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Alan de Enfield    1,031
4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

You may well get some well meaning hobby boaters giving their advice on the subject bless em but remember they toddle off home to their national grid existence when it gets rainy or cold so take it with a pinch of salt.

But the other side of the coin :

Many 'hobby boaters' will not have 'electrical issues' because they spend a fair bit of time travelling and hence charging their batteries, whilst many liveaboards move less frequently and probably for much shorter distances.

As a hobby boater I rarely do less than 1000 miles per year (all seasons), cruising 4-8 hours 'most' days, but sometimes stopping for 2 or 3 days.

 

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OldGoat    142

For a power hungry boat you really need to be on 24v battery electrics. High current consumption at 12v base power always ends in tears.

You won't of course.......

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Peppers    4
18 hours ago, nbfiresprite said:

You soon kill your batteres, if you use the AC electric version. I have used these loo's in Norway, this is one loo you don't want to drop your wallet in. For caravan or boat use, there is 12 volt version which uses LPG for the burner

Cinderella Motion (Caravan and boat)

Stand-by power requirements 0.5 Amp
Incineration Electrical Power Requirement 1.3 Amp
Gas consumption about 110 gr. Per combustion
Fan 12V DC
Gas propane (30 mbar)
Power supply 12V DC / 4 Amp (11-14.4V)

 

Yes - so this is the version I should have directed to. 12v for the fan and propane gas. This is the link I should have directed to: http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/cinderella-motion/

18 hours ago, Jess-- said:

the site gives little info about the details of them, it gives us consumption per burn but doesn't tell us how often it burns

 

One burn = one flush. 

11 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

I wont mention the incinerator toilet just ask yourself why no one else has one?

From what I understand people haven't taken them up yet as they're still expensive. I spoke to the chap at lee sanitation (forgotten his name) and he said they were a great option, he just wasn't stocking them at the minute as they are still too pricey in comparison to pump outs/cassettes at the minute. 

Ohhhh I would so like to find a way to make the incinerator toilet work! It seems like such a perfect solution!

11 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

All the other stuff can be done two major ways one is a stand alone quiet diesel genie installation and one is what I have a Travel power run off the propulsion engine that does everything including ironing and washing machine whilst also charging batteries and moving boat at same time if you wish. Another way would be big alternators and a big inverter this also can work but whilst you are taking big loads for your iron and washing wachine heaters for instance there is nowt much left to charge your batteries.

The most expensive being the stand alone gennie which also means running two diesel engines but it also gives more power of the three ways.

Do you want to live on a boat or do you realy wish you were in a bungalow? that will give you some idea of which way to go. I still have friends living onboard loving it having a great life with absolutely no mains power whatsoever. It wouldn't suit me but you see what I mean. You may well get some well meaning hobby boaters giving their advice on the subject bless em but remember they toddle off home to their national grid existence when it gets rainy or cold so take it with a pinch of salt.

And we will be on a boat obviously, but unfortunately modern life and work requires us to have more electrical stuff than we might wish (environmentally more than anything). We're not energy wasters by any means but we do need power. 

I'd been considering the big alternator big inverter option so we don't have to go and turn a gennie on - and if it's only the washing machine/iron that sounds a stretch then is it possible to only use those when the engine is on? Does that help or is that stupid?

 

Apologies as always for my electrical stupidity. This REALLY is not my specialist subject.

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nbfiresprite    56
20 hours ago, Jess-- said:

the site gives little info about the details of them, it gives us consumption per burn but doesn't tell us how often it burns

 

10 minuites for a number one

30 minuites for a number two

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WotEver    636

For those of us who don't speak Norwegian:

http://cinderellaeco.com/us/cinderella-motion/

Technical info
Seating height 490 mm
Height 510 mm
Width 390 mm
Depth 590 mm
Weight 20 kg
Capacity up to 6 pers
Standby electric power requirement 0,005 Amp
Electric power requirement for incineration 1,3 Amp
Gas consumption around 110 grams per incineration
Incineration power 3000W
Power requirement 12V DC 11-14,4 V
Ventilation fan 12V DC
Gas Propane (30 mBar pressure)
  • Hygienic
  • Certified product
  • 3-year warranty
  • No water supply or installation of tank required
5,295 US
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BruceinSanity    131

In another thread about incinerators, I observed that two people will probably use the loo ten times per day between them. That implies burning a kilo of propane a day and getting less than a fortnight out of a 13 kg cylinder at around £26. If you are working, those figures will reduce a bit, but it's still far and away the most expensive option.

Even with pump out, we are paying about £16 every three weeks at most. Cassette and composting don't cost anything for disposal, of course.

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frangar    287

Ummm....does its have a flue?....or comply with any other aspect of the BSS??? 

I have to say I do admire those that try and reinvent the wheel!! Pointless!...and given that energy consumption it's far from the green option. 

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Alan de Enfield    1,031
1 hour ago, BruceinSanity said:

In another thread about incinerators, I observed that two people will probably use the loo ten times per day between them. That implies burning a kilo of propane a day and getting less than a fortnight out of a 13 kg cylinder at around £26

 

10 hours ago, nbfiresprite said:

10 minuites for a number one

30 minuites for a number two

5x per person per day I can 'agree' with, but cannot understand how a 10 minute burn will use the same quantity of gas as a 30 minute burn - so what is the "110 grams per burn" based on ?

 

Very expensive when you get a touch of 'Delhi-Belly' after a night on the beer, or a bad 'Ruby'

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Peppers    4
2 hours ago, frangar said:

Ummm....does its have a flue?....or comply with any other aspect of the BSS??? 

I have to say I do admire those that try and reinvent the wheel!! Pointless!...and given that energy consumption it's far from the green option. 

I was under the impression it did have a flue from speaking to the Cinderella salesman/the guy at lee sanitation, and I think that's what they're calling a ventilation fan. 

3 hours ago, WotEver said:
Seating height 490 mm
Height 510 mm
Width 390 mm
Depth 590 mm
Weight 20 kg
Capacity up to 6 pers
Standby electric power requirement 0,005 Amp
Electric power requirement for incineration 1,3 Amp
Gas consumption around 110 grams per incineration
Incineration power 3000W
Power requirement 12V DC 11-14,4 V
Ventilation fan 12V DC
Gas Propane (30 mBar pressure)

Thanks for this - does this sound heavy on electrics then or just heavy on gas? (again apologies I know the numbers are right there in front of me, but it might as well stay in dutch for as much sense as it makes to my tiny head)

We've worked out we would probably use the toilet approximately 5-7 times a day so based on this...

3 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

In another thread about incinerators, I observed that two people will probably use the loo ten times per day between them. That implies burning a kilo of propane a day and getting less than a fortnight out of a 13 kg cylinder at around £26. If you are working, those figures will reduce a bit, but it's still far and away the most expensive option.

Even with pump out, we are paying about £16 every three weeks at most. Cassette and composting don't cost anything for disposal, of course.

...we would be paying approximately only just a bit more than a pump out just for gas surely? Maybe £10-£15 a month more. I'm not saying for definite, but to me it might be worth this to not have to have a pump out/more water/waste tank etc. - I know the other similar and cheaper option is cassette, but the OH just will not have this at all. 

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OldGoat    142

I understand (but don't condone 'prissiness' with one's output - must be an upbringing in in the Scouts). However you have to be practical. I t's not only the costs but you have to factor in space for a frequently hot object - not easy even in a broad beam. Additionally it needs more frequent attention to it supplies (if gas powered).

It's designed for large vessels - not inland leisure craft.

 

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Peppers    4
7 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

I understand (but don't condone 'prissiness' with one's output - must be an upbringing in in the Scouts). However you have to be practical. I t's not only the costs but you have to factor in space for a frequently hot object - not easy even in a broad beam. Additionally it needs more frequent attention to it supplies (if gas powered).

It's designed for large vessels - not inland leisure craft.

 

I agree (must be an upbringing on a farm). For me its the chemicals I like less than the effluent itself! However his lordship won't have a composter either and this seemed like a catch-all solution, which is why I'm pushing it. 

Also, we tested one in an eco-toilet shop in the uk and they aren't too hot. Like a warm radiator to touch on the outside base of the toilet for a few minutes.

I'm on the hunt for solar panels and inverters today too. Choices choices choices!!

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OldGoat    142
4 minutes ago, Peppers said:

I agree (must be an upbringing on a farm). For me its the chemicals I like less than the effluent itself! However his lordship won't have a composter either and this seemed like a catch-all solution, which is why I'm pushing it. 

Also, we tested one in an eco-toilet shop in the uk and they aren't too hot. Like a warm radiator to touch on the outside base of the toilet for a few minutes.

I'm on the hunt for solar panels and inverters today too. Choices choices choices!!

I've only just looked at your bio - It's the male side that's being prissy!!! For heavens sake!!!!!!! Just don't look down before you push the lever.....

Old IT adage - Keep It Simple Stupid. You will be in an environment where access to services can be mercurial, technical knowledge - even for some more basic systems  - is at a premium or even non existent in some locations. Add in a device that will be unique on the inland waterways, its spares may have to be imported - during which time you will have to !sit cross legged"? NOW, if OTOH you are prepared to learn all about this unit, fit it yourself, keep a stock of whatever spares might be needed - then that's a different concept entirely.

Boating on a small scale is really only a slight step up from camping, though many new entrants on here just want to translate land based living to the waterways

 

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ditchcrawler    379

I have a drop through pump out. When you go to use it there is just a white china bowl with a small amount of clean water in the bottom. After I have used it the contents are very similar to the domestic toilet at home and if I want to look at what I have produced I can. I then operate the foot peddle and it all disappears, unless I stand and lean forward I cant see down the hole when I flush it and only make an effort to do that when I want to see how full the tank is.

The only problem I have with a PortaPotty is lifting and carrying the tank to empty it every few days. I can imagine the inconvenience of running out of gas and not having hot water until you can get a new cylinder, but not being able to use the loo for a day!

I was looking at a composting Loo in Sweden last week but I dont think I will go for that.

DSCN1983small.jpg

DSCN1982small.jpg

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OldGoat    142
37 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have a drop through pump out. When you go to use it there is just a white china bowl with a small amount of clean water in the bottom. After I have used it the contents are very similar to the domestic toilet at home and if I want to look at what I have produced I can. I then operate the foot peddle and it all disappears, unless I stand and lean forward I cant see down the hole when I flush it and only make an effort to do that when I want to see how full the tank is.

The only problem I have with a PortaPotty is lifting and carrying the tank to empty it every few days. I can imagine the inconvenience of running out of gas and not having hot water until you can get a new cylinder, but not being able to use the loo for a day!

I was looking at a composting Loo in Sweden last week but I dont think I will go for that.

DSCN1983small.jpg

DSCN1982small.jpg

In their 'native' environment they're great. Lost of space large capacity of "holding tank" for the output - the right sort of scale.

However downsizing it and changing the dimensions of receptacles may be a step too far.

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ditchcrawler    379
13 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

In their 'native' environment they're great. Lost of space large capacity of "holding tank" for the output - the right sort of scale.

However downsizing it and changing the dimensions of receptacles may be a step too far.

I liked the twin seat arrangement, very friendly  

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