Gas installation

[dav123]

Hi I am looking for a bit of advice regarding my gas installation, I am a natural gas gas safe fitter however i have next to no experience of LPG  I have enquired about doing the changeover course to add lpg to my quals but for this one job i cant see the point. I borrowed the logic lpg manual of a friend and to be honest it mentions boats once or twice, so as for pipe sizing, tightness testing, purging, pressure drops ect ect im ok with that as theres not that much difference from natural.  My query is the layout of my boat means the gas locker is on the rear deck steel narrowboat I want to install manual changeover in the locker then take the gas pipe down through the floor with a gas tight bulkhead fitting in to engine compartment where this pipe will go in one continuous run along the gun whale to the galley length 3 meters grommet through bulkhead between engine and cabin. this will then split in a kitchen cupboard to feed the oven(3.2kw) and hob (5.7 kw) do these need to be piped in rigid pipe like natural or are there flexible pipes available for lpg? I was planning on doing it in 10mm then I read that this pipe isn't suitable for boats  so i will do it in 1/2 inch, what size ventilation do i need for a 2 berth boat i have 1 mushroom in the cabin and one in the bathroom.

Thanks 

[Alan de Enfield]

Have you realised that there is different qualifications (requirements) for LPG, houses, LPG  Caravans and a different one for (LPG Boats)

 

The piping requirements for boats  is very different - eg, having a vent thru' the botom of the boat is not a good idea.

[dav123]

As I mentioned I know the qualifications for LPG are different, But as most gas fitters will know I can go to any gas training centre do a 4 day course to add LPG for residential, leisure accommodation vehicles, boats, catering units and so on and so on for a couple of hundred quid and straight out fitting LPG, with no LPG experience sad but true. 

you say having a vent is not a good idea but surely a bulkhead fitting is not a vent as it'll be gas tight,

Is that not a good idea in your opinion or is it no it cant be done like that because it contravenes ....reg

regards 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, dav123 said:

you say having a vent is not a good idea but surely a bulkhead fitting is not a vent as it'll be gas tight,

Sorry - my humour.

Caravans have vents in the floors to allow any gas escape to 'fall thru' and disperse.

A vent in the bottom of a boat would not work in quite the same way (as water would invade the boat)

[W+T]

I think that generally all pipe work is copper and short lengths for fttings to cookers and fridges etc. 

 

All fittings need access to inspection also.

 

Have you read through this for the BSS

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/268789/ecp-private-boats-ed3_rev2_apr2015_public_final.pdf

Edited August 11, 2017 by W+T

[Alan de Enfield]

Is it a new-build ? Are you fitting it out in accordance with the RCD ?

Or

Is it refitting an old boat ?

[MtB]

6 hours ago, dav123 said:

Hi I am looking for a bit of advice regarding my gas installation, I am a natural gas gas safe fitter however i have next to no experience of LPG  I have enquired about doing the changeover course to add lpg to my quals but for this one job i cant see the point. I borrowed the logic lpg manual of a friend and to be honest it mentions boats once or twice, so as for pipe sizing, tightness testing, purging, pressure drops ect ect im ok with that as theres not that much difference from natural.  My query is the layout of my boat means the gas locker is on the rear deck steel narrowboat I want to install manual changeover in the locker then take the gas pipe down through the floor with a gas tight bulkhead fitting in to engine compartment where this pipe will go in one continuous run along the gun whale to the galley length 3 meters grommet through bulkhead between engine and cabin. this will then split in a kitchen cupboard to feed the oven(3.2kw) and hob (5.7 kw) do these need to be piped in rigid pipe like natural or are there flexible pipes available for lpg? I was planning on doing it in 10mm then I read that this pipe isn't suitable for boats  so i will do it in 1/2 inch, what size ventilation do i need for a 2 berth boat i have 1 mushroom in the cabin and one in the bathroom.

Thanks 

 

Right, first thing for to to note is the BSS is NOT the standard to use for a new boat. You need BS54823-2016 (from memory). Get a copy and read it end to end and it will make you realise what a shallow and inadequate the standard BSS is. For example, there is nothing in the BSS stopping you piping the whole lot up in 15mm rigid household copper.

Secondly, I'd strongly advise doing the four day LPG changeover. I first did it about fifteen years ago and it was fascinating. Pretty much everything you know about NG has to be set aside and the four days were pretty intense learning.

Thirdly, once you've done the LPG changeover then adding in 'boats' is not very much extra work, but very few training centres offer it any longer as they now have to have a mock-up of a boat for you to be examined on, which is a ball-ache to contruct for the very small demand there is for boat LPG training. Best advice is try some training skools on the coast and near ports/harbours. E.g Portsmouth area.

Forthly, although the risk is small it would be a Good Idea to get boat qualified to do your own, as if you mess up and have a 'gas incident', I'm sure being a GSR bod will weigh heavily against you for working out of scope when the court is sentencing you

 

[sharpness]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Right, first thing for to to note is the BSS is NOT the standard to use for a new boat. You need BS54823-2016 (from memory). Get a copy and read it end to end and it will make you realise what a shallow and inadequate the standard BSS is. For example, there is nothing in the BSS stopping you piping the whole lot up in 15mm rigid household copper.

Secondly, I'd strongly advise doing the four day LPG changeover. I first did it about fifteen years ago and it was fascinating. Pretty much everything you know about NG has to be set aside and the four days were pretty intense learning.

Thirdly, once you've done the LPG changeover then adding in 'boats' is not very much extra work, but very few training centres offer it any longer as they now have to have a mock-up of a boat for you to be examined on, which is a ball-ache to contruct for the very small demand there is for boat LPG training. Best advice is try some training skools on the coast and near ports/harbours. E.g Portsmouth area.

Forthly, although the risk is small it would be a Good Idea to get boat qualified to do your own, as if you mess up and have a 'gas incident', I'm sure being a GSR bod will weigh heavily against you for working out of scope when the court is sentencing you

 

Alternatively, employ someone with the appropriate qualifications?

Steve

[jddevel]

One thing may be worthy of note is that my LPG gas fitter used GasTite

I quote

GASTITE® flexible gas pipe is a corrugated stainless steel tube (CSST) with a UV resistant polyethylene cover. 0.5 bar max. operating pressure in domestic, commercial and industrial applications. Approved in accordance with BS EN 15266:2007. XR2 mechanical fittings are a tool-less flare design with metal-to-metal seal and patented Jacket-Lock®, which eliminates exposed stainless steel beyond the nut. All components are fully re-useable.
For Natural Gas and LPG

My initial BSS inspection queried it`s use with the Trust office having not seen it used before and they confirmed it as being suitable. Being flexible it was very easy to use. 

[MtB]

And breathtakingly ugly...

[blackrose]

19 hours ago, dav123 said:

...do these need to be piped in rigid pipe like natural or are there flexible pipes available for lpg? I was planning on doing it in 10mm then I read that this pipe isn't suitable for boats  so i will do it in 1/2 inch, what size ventilation do i need for a 2 berth boat i have 1 mushroom in the cabin and one in the bathroom.

Thanks 

All pipework should be in soft copper pipe not rigid. I only know the basic BSS regs (not BS54823-2016), but the basic BSS does allow for connections to certain appliances to be made with the the correct spec of pre-made flexible hose. I used steel braided hoses sold to me by Uxbridge Boat Centre but some consider them less safe because the inner hose itself can't be inspected. https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/164540/bss guide chap7.pdf

You will have to check BS54823-2016 to see what is permitted.

Under the BSS ventilation isn't mandatory, but if you look in the appropriate chapter of the Essential Guide, recommendations are given along with how to calculate your ventilation requirements. https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/180428/bss guide 2005 complete web.pdf

Do bear in mind what Mike said above, that this guide is not for new boats.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

All pipework should be in soft copper pipe not rigid.

 

Does it actually say that in the BSS? 

I ask because I know someone with a 15mm rigid copper installation and it passes BSS every year with flying colours. The inspector concerned says the BSS doesn't specify soft copper and I assumed he would know so haven't actually checked...

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Does it actually say that in the BSS? 

I ask because I know someone with a 15mm rigid copper installation and it passes BSS every year with flying colours. The inspector concerned says the BSS doesn't specify soft copper and I assumed he would know so haven't actually checked...

I don't know, probably not. But how does your friend overcome the issue of "unnecessary joints" in the pipework if he/she is using rigid pipe which comes in 2.5m lengths? Can't help thinking that the inspector is being unduly lenient on that point - unless of course it's a very short pipe run?

I thought soft copper was required/recommended not only for that reason, but also because it is less susceptible to failure at joints due to vibration/flexing. If a rigid pipe is vibrated or is flexed due to a sudden impact, the pipe won't flex and will instead transmit that energy to a joint.

Edited August 12, 2017 by blackrose

[dav123]

 Thanks all read the BSS, pretty much says do as you please. But think ill comply with these ISO10239 and BS54823 fit a bubble tester then it should pass a BSS everytime. And as for british standards they was quite a pleasant read!! If i get time in the future might do the LPG changeover course but for now ill say the same  as  some of my customers say "was like that when I got here"