Voltage Sensitive Relay?

[AndrewIC]

I have a very old Smartbank II relay, the sort with the little remote control panel which they stopped producing a long time ago.

It's packed up again, and assuming I don't manage to fix it this time (no one was interested in fixing it last time it failed, and it was only by good luck that I managed to fix it myself), I'll be looking for a new VSR.

Any recommendations for a split charge VSR, with remote override control and status indication? I'm aware of the Sterling ones.

Thanks, Andrew

[frangar]

Blue sea systems! They do excellent kit

[Robbo]

The BlueSea BatteryLink is prob the best one if wanting remote connect ability.

[jddevel]

On the forums advice I have purchased BlueSea "stuff" however according to all distributor sources they are having a certain amount of supply issues due to BlueSea having a "plastic supply" problem. Don`t know any details but you may have to shop around. 

[AndrewIC]

Thanks, the Blue Sea one looks good, although I see the instructions say it is not suitable for starting currents. The SmartBank describes the manual switch as being for "emergency engine starting", which is really the point of wanting a manual override.

Hopefully it's the relay coil that's failed this time, the rest of the electronics seems to be working. Last time it was a bad joint on the PCB.

[Robbo]

7 minutes ago, AndrewIC said:

Thanks, the Blue Sea one looks good, although I see the instructions say it is not suitable for starting currents. The SmartBank describes the manual switch as being for "emergency engine starting", which is really the point of wanting a manual override.

Hopefully it's the relay coil that's failed this time, the rest of the electronics seems to be working. Last time it was a bad joint on the PCB.

Starting currents are in the 400+amp not seen a VSR that can do that!   When combining a bank to do emergency engine starting you combine and then leave for a while so the starter battery gets a bit of charge from the main bank (like you would to jump start a car) and the starter battery can then start the engine.  

I use a battery switch to combine my banks for emergency engine starting.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Robbo

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Robbo said:

Starting currents are in the 400+amp not seen a VSR that can do that! 

That's one of the advantages of SmartBank. It uses a high quality Albright contactor instead of a weedy relay. 

[Tony Brooks]

4 hours ago, Robbo said:

Starting currents are in the 400+amp not seen a VSR that can do that!   When combining a bank to do emergency engine starting you combine and then leave for a while so the starter battery gets a bit of charge from the main bank (like you would to jump start a car) and the starter battery can then start the engine.  

I use a battery switch to combine my banks for emergency engine starting.

I can't see how you could use a VSR to carry starting currents with  a properly wired charging system. It won't close until the voltage is above about 13.6V so it needs the engine running or another charging source to close. If its another charging source then the engine battery would be being charged before starting. If the engine battery was flat then it would not start so no 13.6 volts.

Even with a flat domestic battery and lazy wiring the current through the VSR would be alternator output plus a bit but probably not that much more.

I can see how you could use an ordinary relay to do it, be it split charge or otherwise.

 

Thinking about it a bit more even if you could get 13.6 volts on the VSR I think voltdrop across the battery is likely to pull it below that figure so the relay would open.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[Robbo]

16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I can't see how you could use a VSR to carry starting currents with  a properly wired charging system. It won't close until the voltage is above about 13.6V so it needs the engine running or another charging source to close. If its another charging source then the engine battery would be being charged before starting. If the engine battery was flat then it would not start so no 13.6 volts.

Even with a flat domestic battery and lazy wiring the current through the VSR would be alternator output plus a bit but probably not that much more.

I can see how you could use an ordinary relay to do it, be it split charge or otherwise.

 

Thinking about it a bit more even if you could get 13.6 volts on the VSR I think voltdrop across the battery is likely to pull it below that figure so the relay would open.

We were on about the override mode.  Although I think the quote with enginee starting loads may be from the batterylink instructions where this device can be a load disconnect relay as well as a VSR.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Robbo

[AndrewIC]

1 hour ago, Robbo said:

We were on about the override mode.  Although I think the quote with enginee starting loads may be from the batterylink instructions where this device can be a load disconnect relay as well as a VSR.

The Smartbank override switch forces the relay closed, regardless of the battery voltages, so it can be closed before starting. It was described as being specifically for emergency starting, I've only used it a couple of times for that purpose, both when not being able to start would have been a problem.

The innards of the very chunky relay are probably not that different from a battery isolator, and of course it doesn't need to switch starting currents, just endure them.

I will look at the options more closely when I get back. At the moment the jury rig is working, I just have to remember to switch it!

[WotEver]

40 minutes ago, AndrewIC said:

The Smartbank override switch forces the relay closed, regardless of the battery voltages, so it can be closed before starting. It was described as being specifically for emergency starting, I've only used it a couple of times for that purpose, both when not being able to start would have been a problem.

The innards of the very chunky relay are probably not that different from a battery isolator, and of course it doesn't need to switch starting currents, just endure them.

I will look at the options more closely when I get back. At the moment the jury rig is working, I just have to remember to switch it!

If you contact Merlin I'm sure they will be able to supply you with a replacement Albright relay, or at least point you where to obtain one. 

[AndrewIC]

26 minutes ago, WotEver said:

If you contact Merlin I'm sure they will be able to supply you with a replacement Albright relay, or at least point you where to obtain one. 

Yes, I'm hoping it's the relay that's gone this time!

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, Robbo said:

We were on about the override mode.  Although I think the quote with enginee starting loads may be from the batterylink instructions where this device can be a load disconnect relay as well as a VSR.

I very much doubt the device controlled by the Smartbank/Smartguage is a VSR. I think its an ordinary relay controlled by the Smartbank/Smartguage so it acts like a VSR but is not one. The reason I posted as I did is because you specifically talked about a VSR ad I did not want others to get the idea that a simple VSR could parallel the battery banks at sub pull in voltages.

I agree that any VSR I have seen will get nowhere near carrying starting loads. If I wanted the Smartbank/Smartguage to do that I would use a continuously rated solenoid rated at something like 600 amps. However having seen the copper bar in an Allbright contactor I think it and its contact studs are very similar to those in modern diesel pre-engage starters so should be able to cope once in a while.

[AndrewIC]

On 11 August 2017 at 18:41, Tony Brooks said:

I agree that any VSR I have seen will get nowhere near carrying starting loads. If I wanted the Smartbank/Smartguage to do that I would use a continuously rated solenoid rated at something like 600 amps. However having seen the copper bar in an Allbright contactor I think it and its contact studs are very similar to those in modern diesel pre-engage starters so should be able to cope once in a while.

Fair point, sloppy language on my part. Sterling describe their automatic battery combining relays as "VSR". I see BlueSea do heavy duty devices with "Start Assist" at about twice the price of charging-only relays. Not had a chance to get the SmartBank out yet.

[AndrewIC]

Follow-up: Looks like it is probably the contactor gone bad. The relay coil is intermittently high resistance, 150 kOhms+ versus about 20 Ohms normally. Have bought a new contactor and it seems to work OK.