Mastervolt expertise anyone? Urgent advice required.

[Sea Dog]

Mastervolt 12/2500-100 Mass Combi Inverter Charger

So, we're onboard, on the shore electrical supply, all boat 240v circuits working fine, charger whirring away doing its thing very happily. Along comes electrical test man safety testing shore supplies, off goes the shore power, he the tests the shoreside installation and RCD so power trips a couple of times, all done, power restored. Didn't realise quick enough to disconnect my boat before he started, but had we not been aboard then I wouldn't have had the opportunity anyway. The issue was noticed immediately on restoration of the power and, whilst the electrician was quick to explain it was nothing to do with his testing, the coincidence is rather too glaring. Not necessarily his work, perhaps a power spike on restoration? Anyway, he beat a hasty retreat.

So, I now have AC input to the boat again,  but all is silent. Investigation reveals 240V at input terminals to Combi, 240V on AC output "power" terminals (shore supply only - immersion heater cct in my case), 240V not present at AC output "short break" terminals (so no shore power to sockets, etc).  AC input led on Mastervolt front cover is 'off', battery charger not running. The thermal fuse has not popped open, hence doesn't reset.

Switching the inverter on works as it should, supplying 240v to sockets, etc, from the boat's 12v bank. From these symptoms I believe can ascertain that no shore supply is reaching the short break circuit (from which the charger is also supplied) - I suspect that the transfer relay is not closing.

I have the User Manual and it's helped so far, but I've run out of technical information now. Can anyone provide further enlightenment or does anyone know 'a man who can'?

The situation is made rather more difficult as the boat comes out of the water tomorrow for blacking (self employed and we're staying aboard), so I can't run the engine to keep the batteries topped up if I use the inverter.

I'm considering a temporary connection of the unaffected AC output power to the cable leaving the short break terminals to give me domestic 240V whilst the boat is on the blocks, so if anyone sees reason not to do that, do shout!  I'm still in head scratching mode at the moment,  I and wanted to get a thread started in case you guys are able to provide ideas and info.

Help, advice, or appropriate phone numbers, much appreciated. The boat will be on the hard in Droitwich Spa Marina from Friday. Thanks in advance.

 

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Mastervolt 12/2500-100 Mass Combi Inverter Charger

So, we're onboard, on the shore electrical supply, all boat 240v circuits working fine, charger whirring away doing its thing very happily. Along comes electrical test man safety testing shore supplies, off goes the shore power, he the tests the shoreside installation and RCD so power trips a couple of times, all done, power restored. Didn't realise quick enough to disconnect my boat before he started, but had we not been aboard then I wouldn't have had the opportunity anyway. The issue was noticed immediately on restoration of the power and, whilst the electrician was quick to explain it was nothing to do with his testing, the coincidence is rather too glaring. Not necessarily his work, perhaps a power spike on restoration? Anyway, he beat a hasty retreat.

So, I now have AC input to the boat again,  but all is silent. Investigation reveals 240V at input terminals to Combi, 240V on AC output "power" terminals (shore supply only - immersion heater cct in my case), 240V not present at AC output "short break" terminals (so no shore power to sockets, etc).  AC input led on Mastervolt front cover is 'off', battery charger not running. The thermal fuse has not popped open, hence doesn't reset.

Switching the inverter on works as it should, supplying 240v to sockets, etc, from the boat's 12v bank. From these symptoms I believe can ascertain that no shore supply is reaching the short break circuit (from which the charger is also supplied) - I suspect that the transfer relay is not closing.

I have the User Manual and it's helped so far, but I've run out of technical information now. Can anyone provide further enlightenment or does anyone know 'a man who can'?

The situation is made rather more difficult as the boat comes out of the water tomorrow for blacking (self employed and we're staying aboard), so I can't run the engine to keep the batteries topped up if I use the inverter.

I'm considering a temporary connection of the unaffected AC output power to the cable leaving the short break terminals to give me domestic 240V whilst the boat is on the blocks, so if anyone sees reason not to do that, do shout!  I'm still in head scratching mode at the moment,  I and wanted to get a thread started in case you guys are able to provide ideas and info.

Help, advice, or appropriate phone numbers, much appreciated. The boat will be on the hard in Droitwich Spa Marina from Friday. Thanks in advance.

 

Pm Nick ( Norman ) in case he doesn't see this thread. He has all mastervolt stuff and some leccy knowledge also and he may well be able to help.

[nicknorman]

You could connect  the incoming shore and outgoing short break wires together but not when still connected to the inverter. And of course you will lose the battery charger (but presumably that isn't working anyway).

Have you tried just turning it off and on again? If so I would suggest a complete "reboot" of the Combi. Disconnect the shore supply and the 12v supply, leave it for a while, reconnect the shore supply (expect a fat spark from charging the capacitors) and try again.

 

Edit: just re-reading what you suggested, if you take the wires off the "short break" terminals and put them on the "power output" terminals, that will be fine.

Edited August 9, 2017 by nicknorman

[Robbo]

Check for internal fuses.

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Have you tried just turning it off and on again?

The universal cure-all that apparently even works on warships. It's exactly what I was going to suggest. 

Its apparent that the Combi isn't 'seeing' the input so either something has gone pop inside or, hopefully more likely, it's just confused. 

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

The universal cure-all that apparently even works on warships. It's exactly what I was going to suggest. 

Its apparent that the Combi isn't 'seeing' the input so either something has gone pop inside or, hopefully more likely, it's just confused. 

I like warships

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

You could connect  the incoming shore and outgoing short break wires together but not when still connected to the inverter. And of course you will lose the battery charger (but presumably that isn't working anyway).

Have you tried just turning it off and on again? If so I would suggest a complete "reboot" of the Combi. Disconnect the shore supply and the 12v supply, leave it for a while, reconnect the shore supply (expect a fat spark from charging the capacitors) and try again.

 

Edit: just re-reading what you suggested, if you take the wires off the "short break" terminals and put them on the "power output" terminals, that will be fine.

Thanks everyone.

Nick, thanks for the edit bit - that's exactly my intent, so I appreciate the sanity check. Both of those outputs go to breakers so I considered linking the inputs there, but that involves temporary wiring  as opposed to simply piggy backing the "power output".  Of course, as you spotted earlier too, neither will restore the battery charger, so I've pulled the fuse on the fridge and we'll have to be frugal with the other 12v stuff whilst we're on the hard. 

Robbo, I've tried the thermal fuse, but I don't have the depth of technical information to work out whether there's other protective devices I could check, replace or reset. The user manual is pretty good, but it is just that - a user manual. As I said initially, the best I can ascertain from the diagrams I have is that the transfer relay isn't closing. Whether it's u/s or isn't being energised I can't tell, but I suspect the latter as I don't have the 'AC Input' green led indication but definitely do have 240v at the 'AC input' and 'power output' terminals, just not at the 'short break' terminals or the battery charger (which does not energise) which share a common supply rail after the relay closes.

I've tried the 'Ferranti Reset' (there's one for the ex-matelots!) but I haven't disconnected from 12V too, so that's certainly something to try. I am rather hoping it's just confused as WotEver suggests, cos I'm not expecting a cheap or speedy repair if it ends up going to the Netherlands! Right now, I'd settle for speedy! Does anyone know a reliable and reputable UK tech?

It couldn't have happened at a more inconvenient point really.  Had we been sailing on Friday instead of hauling out it would have had little or no effect, and if we were staying afloat but moored we'd have been able to keep the batteries charged from the alternator. 

Thanks again all for the suggestions fellas, much appreciated. 

(This'll teach me to bleat about how many Inverter or Combi threads start with "My Sterling....")

[nicknorman]

KeithM of this forum is a Mastervolt agent, he doesn't post much these days but you could try calling his company volt master systems http://voltmastersystems.co.uk/contact/

[Sea Dog]

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

KeithM of this forum is a Mastervolt agent, he doesn't post much these days but you could try calling his company volt master systems http://voltmastersystems.co.uk/contact/

Nick, much appreciated, thanks.

49 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I like warships

Tim, Warships nowadays are rather like you and I - they don't work!

 

Update: 'short break' circuits now paralleled with 'power output' circuits, so we now have domestic 240V.  No battery charger, so no fridge and 12V circuits will require careful management 'til I can get a battery charger brought up to t'midlands this weekend. Fortunately,we are all led on lighting, so that's a bonus.

Thanks again for the input guys!

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Sea Dog said:

Thanks again for the input

Just a shame there's no output

[Sea Dog]

Just now, WotEver said:

Just a shame there's no output

Ah, you little tinker!

[Sea Dog]

Well, the unit was isolated from 240V and disconnected from the batteries overnight. One thing happened and one thing didn't. There was a big spark at the 12V terminal on reconnection, so thanks Nick! (I think I'd have been ready for that but the 'heads up' certainly helped). The unit hasn't reset and burst back into full functionality on restoration of power, so it seems it wasn't confused but is actually doing this on purpose!

I don't know whether there are other fuses or protective devices inside beyond the removable front cover, and it looks like a full disconnect and off the bulkhead job to get in to see. Without a better diagram, that's a bit of a shot in the darkso, in the unlikely event that anyone has one, I'd appreciate a copy.

Failing anything further from the panel, I can feel a call to Keith at Voltmastersystems.co.uk coming on (thanks again Nick for the contact details). Bummer - I really should be preparing for my imminent haul out and blacking! 

[Sea Dog]

Further update, not least for future searches looking for similar symptoms and repair options - phone numbers of trade contacts at the end if that's you!

Whilst I'd noticed that with the Combi main switch in the 'off' or 'charger' positions the AC Input led is off, I've also now spotted that with the inverter running (which it does quite happily), the AC input led is flashing. Whilst that smacks of shore supply out of tolerance issues, I've just read a thread started not long ago (24 Apr 17) by 1agos who had identical symptoms. His unit went back to Mastervolt in the Netherlands (via Keith Meadowcroft, Voltmaster, I think), who repaired it as a 'flat rate repair' for a fee of £458. It turned out to be an "AC auxiliary supply defect".

I haven't been able to reach Keith at Voltmaster yet (01455 250601 or 07740 200755 - from the company website), but I'm hoping for a return call.

I have also found a company in Tamworth, Sellweb Ltd, who repair these things as a sideline (their core business started there and has moved on). Contact phone number is 01827 281976. The unit has to reach them for assessment, either by post or dropped off, before a cost can be provided. 

Hope that's helpful.

[frangar]

Although I've not used them I've had sellweb recommended.

I've also  sent a unit back to holland for repair...one thing to note was it only had a 3 month warranty. I did say that was a bit poor but told tough! 

[Sea Dog]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

Although I've not used them I've had sellweb recommended.

I've also  sent a unit back to holland for repair...one thing to note was it only had a 3 month warranty. I did say that was a bit poor but told tough! 

Ah, thanks for that.  Good to know someone somewhere is recommending Sellweb at least. Not sure whether it would be quicker or cheaper to use them or just bite the bullet and go with Mastervolt. Three months does sound a bit stingey, but I suppose if it works once it's all back in, the repair is at least proven. Did you also get charged the 'flat rate repair' option of £458 and what was the turn around time with Mastervolt Netherlands repair?

Edited August 10, 2017 by Sea Dog
Sp

[frangar]

The unit I had fixed was one that had been fitted on a new build I had wired up. I sent it back to aquafax who were the orginal supplier who then sent it to holland. It took about a month. They had a pallet almost ready to send as I recall. I think they can send units singly but there is an extra charge so you might have longer to wait if you don't want to pay extra. The charge is the same whatever is done. The unit I sent had two capacitors replaced....

The chap that deals with all mastervolt kit at aquafax did suggest that if the unit is 5/6 years old or more it might be better going for a new unit as the rest of the components are also ageing....I did say that didn't say much for the build quality these days...I personally have a Mastervolt inverter that's coming up for its 17th birthday...

[Sea Dog]

Thanks Frangar. Mine's 8 so I'm not sure where that leaves me! At the price, I'd expect solid state kit like this to go on for donkey's years. 1agos unit with exactly the same symptoms a mine came back with a rather less specific report of an "AC auxiliary supply defect", otherwise a willy-nilly capacitor change might have been an attractive thing to try first!  Maybe once I have it off the bulkhead I'll have a look-see at the internals just in case there's anything obviously amiss, but I'm mindful that 'tampering' might boot me out of their flat rate repair scheme. Thanks again for sharing your experience. Most helpful.

[frangar]

I should add that the unit I sent away for repair had let quite a lot of magic smoke out with a bang....yoursdies sound like a simple switch failure or possibly an internal fuse or similar component failure

[Sea Dog]

22 hours ago, frangar said:

I should add that the unit I sent away for repair had let quite a lot of magic smoke out with a bang....yoursdies sound like a simple switch failure or possibly an internal fuse or similar component failure

No external symptoms on mine, no smoke or smell, just the fault. I think you're probably right about what might be wrong, but from PMs and phone calls I believe we're at the stage where UK diagnosis ends and a Dutch repair begins. I'll have a shufti in the back when I take it off the bulkhead in case there's anything obvious or resettable but, as it stands, I have jury rigged shore power available whilst I'm working on the boat and later I can reconfigure to use the inverter without charger when we go out and about again. I'm thinking of living with it for a bit so we don't end up with an unusable boat once the school summer holidays are over and we're back into the proper cruising season! I'll probably send it into the repair loop when we have a slot where other stuff has us needing to be home for a bit. 

Thanks to all who took time to suggest stuff. If I can find the thread again(!) I'll post an update with the final result.