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Open Canal Map


Amber34

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13 hours ago, reg said:

That looks impressive. Well worth pursuing. 

I have limited data left for the month so will concentrate on Locus Maps Pro as I can do a lot of that offline. 

Also have removed Google maps as I only have 2g left on my tablet due to a lot of offline map data. 

Are you able to tidy up the data before creating a Kmz file?

Reason I ask is because there is some extraneous and confusing info in the point derail as it stands e.g. Has a lot of distance info that isn't relevant I. E it has become static data and hence meaningless. Not a priority after all you set the priorities not me. 

Can let you know at some point how the ideal data could be presented but I need to research in depth how Locus Pro handles the point info. 

 

I will try and tidy up the data at some point - it's a bit all over the place as I've just been randomly merging layers in XML and grabbing data from all over the web to build this map - it's less than 2 weeks old at the moment. :)

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It's over 15 years since I did any serious parsing, editing and Sql, brain cells no longer up to scratch. Glad to leave that to you now. 

Easier when I started use to wear a white coat and sort data cards in trays. Drew a line from corner to corner with felt top pen so that you could resort if tray was dropped. 

Mind you half Meg of ram cost £800,000 in old money. 

Young uns wouldn't believe it. 

Will leave you to it for a few weeks. Good work. 

 

Edited by reg
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49 minutes ago, reg said:

Mind you half Meg of ram cost £800,000 in old money. 

I recall the first (really expensive) 500 meg hard drive that I used required two strong men to carry it up the stairs. It was the size of a medium suitcase. 

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3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

I recall the first (really expensive) 500 meg hard drive that I used required two strong men to carry it up the stairs. It was the size of a medium suitcase. 

Just put something in virtual pub about ram prices from 1957. Reet takes me back

Edited by reg
Spelckr doesn't like Yorkshire. Who's Reed anyway
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I remember spending over £1000 each on 18Gb hard drives (4 for the machine) years ago when building a server, we had to import the drives direct from IBM as they weren't on general release yet

from memory the other specs were...
quad Pentium 2 350Mhz
512 Mb ram

at the time the server was state of the art and was easily the most powerful machine in the data-centre.

of course these days my mobile phone is more powerful, has more storage but has slightly less memory

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Tom's thanks for the mention on your site, not necessary but appreciated.

I'm looking to take thinks a bit further so am playing around with it in CSV format using LibreOfficeBase. I'll get in touch with you directly when a bit more work has been done.

Currently looking at splitting the data down via queries into the following

Roughly equivalent to

Nicholson guides (latest edition) 1,2,3,4,5,6and 7

Pearson guides 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9

BCN -BCN Canal network

The above splits are done to overcome the current problem of using the data offline e.g Locus Maps where there is an resource overhead in using the full data points and tracks. By splitting the data down into chunks users will be able to have separate directories for each chunk thereby reducing the overhead when the maps are loaded i.e they will only need to load the portions of the overall data that they need to display.

The splits are designed to very roughly compliment the user guides certainly not replace them. All data used has derived from the CRT open canal data and potentially from your user input updates.

Future possible splits

EA waters (no data at the moment)

Canal society specific 

Bridgewater Canal management

Any other.....

Also considering 

Possibly winter Stoppages (will look at this when data published)

 

Happy to hand over the data to anyone that wants them once work is complete.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, thebfg said:

As a simpleton I'm running this on my Google maps.

A quick question if I may.

Will it auto update when places are added or do I need to keep updating it my self?

I understand it is live data so updates should be automatic. Tom's has a Twitter account where he is answering questions

https://mobile.twitter.com/Opencanalmap

RobM nice to see it has a plug in the magazine.

I'm not associated with the project other than looking at getting it working on Locus maps Pro using data provided by Tom's in kml  format. The offline version will be static data and will be dependent on downloads, currently the file is about 10mb. In a lot of cases you shouldn't need to download very often but you can chose the frequency yourself.

The offline version should compliment the online version and should be good for general use but when you need dynamic data then the online version should be used.

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13 hours ago, thebfg said:

As a simpleton I'm running this on my Google maps.

A quick question if I may.

Will it auto update when places are added or do I need to keep updating it my self?

Had a think about this overnight for the offline version and realised that it should be relatively simple,once the system is in place, to provide a means of uploading recent dynamic updates into the static version via a very small download.

So thanks for raising the question.

For the techies

In Locus Maps Pro

Canals and Tunnels are stored in TRACKS

Locks, Bridges,Wharfs etc are stored in POINTS

The pseudo dynamic data could be uploaded as POIs (Points Of Interest)

This could mean that a small POI file could be downloaded as often as the user wants.

Note

The above relates to the offline data only. If you are using the main online open map only then the above should not concern you.

Edited by reg
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Tom - as this is an "open" map, could I ask what your plans are for making the user-contributed data downloadable, under an open licence?

(Happy to advise on open licences if you want - especially as CRT have screwed up and chosen a not-actually-open licence themselves... :angry:)

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6 hours ago, Richard Fairhurst said:

Tom - as this is an "open" map, could I ask what your plans are for making the user-contributed data downloadable, under an open licence?

(Happy to advise on open licences if you want - especially as CRT have screwed up and chosen a not-actually-open licence themselves... :angry:)

I'll let Tom answer that I think at some point Tom may need a forum to discuss these issues, early days yet.

I've just reread the CRT licence and as you point out it has some issues for those that may want to use it for commercial purposes e.g aps etc

I note this in particular

".. charging for advertising space in a product that includes 
that Data."

Which I interpret as meaning that any site or app using the data, including Tom's, that has advertising banners etc may be deemed to be a 'commercial body.

Not my area of expertise so I'll stay out of this legal area of discussion for now.

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/refresh/media/thumbnail/26503-CRT-Data-Licence.pdf

 

Edited by reg
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9 hours ago, reg said:

Had a think about this overnight for the offline version and realised that it should be relatively simple,once the system is in place, to provide a means of uploading recent dynamic updates into the static version via a very small download.

So thanks for raising the question.

For the techies

In Locus Maps Pro

Canals and Tunnels are stored in TRACKS

Locks, Bridges,Wharfs etc are stored in POINTS

The pseudo dynamic data could be uploaded as POIs (Points Of Interest)

This could mean that a small POI file could be downloaded as often as the user wants.

Note

The above relates to the offline data only. If you are using the main online open map only then the above should not concern you.

thanks and for the other post.

2 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

This is great. I have selected that it is imprinted? on my google maps. That is also great.

can someone lead me through getting it off google maps.

as someone who once was update with technology.

 

if your using the app on the phone or probaly any version just de select it.

 

on the app it's the three bars in the top just scroll down. 

 

it's where you can select traffic, satalite and other features.

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8 minutes ago, reg said:

I note this in particular

".. charging for advertising space in a product that includes 
that Data."

Which I interpret as meaning that any site or app using the data, including Tom's, that has advertising banners etc may be deemed to be a 'commercial body.

Yep - exactly that. The non-commercial clause means that the CRT data isn't "open data" by any accepted use of the phrase (the Open Definition, the ODI, the OKFN etc. etc.).

As you say, it means it can't be used on a website that has advertising to defray the server bills, or in an app with any paid-for features, or in a map for a book or magazine, and so on. It also means it can't be combined and redistributed with data that's under a genuinely open licence, such as OpenStreetMap. The Environment Agency, Ordnance Survey, Historic England and other organisations have all got this right and used a proper open licence - it's a real shame to see CRT needlessly restricting the use of the data.

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Would it be possible to have the map load (in the browser) initially with most info turned off? Which the user can then turn on. The reason being that on visiting the map it's the full Monty and it takes AGES to load and slows the browser down to a crawl.

Also, (and I realise I'm in the minority here) no love for Scottish Canals? I have a couple of maps that I could use to add SC info.

Keep up the good work though. It looks like a handy resource for our comrades South of the border.

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35 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

Would it be possible to have the map load (in the browser) initially with most info turned off? Which the user can then turn on. The reason being that on visiting the map it's the full Monty and it takes AGES to load and slows the browser down to a crawl.

Also, (and I realise I'm in the minority here) no love for Scottish Canals? I have a couple of maps that I could use to add SC info.

Keep up the good work though. It looks like a handy resource for our comrades South of the border.

I've considered that problem as well, see my post number 31 above, the data base I'm working on for the offline version currently splits the maps down into the following

Roughly equivalent to

Nicholson guides (latest edition) 1,2,3,4,5,6and 7(separate maps)

Pearson guides 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9(separate maps)

BCN -BCN Canal network

Currently I have analysed the raw data and have managed to split the Canals into the above categories.

I now wrestling with the more difficult problem of identifying how to link the appropriate locks,bridges,wharfs etc to the appropriate map split. Making some good progress on this but it's grunt work, should get it into a rough state sometime soon.

The main problem is that the raw data contains extraneous data and,for the techies, compound keys. It's just a case of identifying the relevant data and extracting it.

Once I've done that I'll discuss with Tom whether he wants to go with it or not. I suspect He's pretty busy at the moment so I'm trying to leave him alone until I've got something to show him.

Once the grunt work is done then it should be relatively easy to translate the map splits  it into the online system. 

Re your second point the Scottish Canals are not controlled by  CART therefore they are not in the 'open data' that they provide. Certainly would be nice at a later date

Bearing in mind his project is only a few weeks old I think it has come a long way

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Soctland - I've put the Scottish canals on the map - no locks or features but the line is there - I'll see what I can find on the internet with locations of the locks etc. Don't know much about canals up there - any ideas where I might look for that data?

Slow loading - google 'my maps' is what I'm using to load it into google maps - it's really limiting and I'm just figuring out how to get it to work best - there is no control of hiding the icons on differing zoom levels like you can with Google Maps API.

Open data license - it'd be great if you can look into open data / source licence that is appropriate. All I understood from the CRT open data licence was that I could use the data - there isn't any plan to commercialise this - so all the data could be open / free / non - commercial kind of license.

Off-line versions / breaking the maps up into sections - I'm working on a map editor using the maps API - so that will be the map with locks, canals etc. in the browser with buttons to add features and suggest amendments to the ones already added - this will produce a database that can be exported as KMZ file for the google map or CSV / other formats for offline viewing - the base map can be separated out and refined for apps. The KML format for the apps differs from Google Maps style - icons not centred correctly for example.

Thanks for all the input. It is much appreciated :)

union-canal.png

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I have a PDF map of the Scottish canals (that I bought) with the locks, bridges, etc marked on it. It doesn't have other things like petrol stations, pubs, etc though.

If I get time tomorrow I'll try and get your open map to not kill my browser :D and try adding some bits and bobs.

Keep up the good work all! :)

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1 hour ago, ronnietucker said:

I have a PDF map of the Scottish canals (that I bought) with the locks, bridges, etc marked on it. It doesn't have other things like petrol stations, pubs, etc though.

If I get time tomorrow I'll try and get your open map to not kill my browser :D and try adding some bits and bobs.

Keep up the good work all! :)

It seems to load fastest in Google Chrome if that is any help.

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Tom

Richards posts 36 and 40 raise some very good points and also point to some suitable resources. 

Following on from them i had a quick look at openstreetmap and found a large amount of the information is available from there. How it is extracted and input I haven't looked into but certainly on the section I looked at all the canals, bridges and locks were there. May be worth a detailed look at some point.

Issue of openess I am with Richard on this in that it may be a good long or medium term aim to make the data fully open. Current problem with the crt licence is that anyone using 'your' data downstream of you may not be in compliance with the crt licence.

Other problem with the crt data is that it has a lot of inbuilt redundancy which will take some weeding out. The redundant data also leads to some of the overhead when the data is being loaded. Example of the redundancy in attached photo below. Completely meaningless info in the description field for non crt employees.

 

Map splitting

I have a table which shows the close approximation to the Nicholson guides and also the BCN network. Need to do a bit more work on the Pearson guides close compatibility break down. Can let you have what I've got on these very soon.

Screenshot_2017-08-28-01-14-50.png

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14 hours ago, toms1 said:

Soctland - I've put the Scottish canals on the map - no locks or features but the line is there - I'll see what I can find on the internet with locations of the locks etc. Don't know much about canals up there - any ideas where I might look for that data?

1

I've added some info for the Bowling Basin end of the Forth & Clyde canal. If it looks OK let me know and I'll add more info.

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48 minutes ago, ronnietucker said:

I've added some info for the Bowling Basin end of the Forth & Clyde canal. If it looks OK let me know and I'll add more info.

Yep - got them - will merge them into the map tomorrow.

 

Tom

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