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Marie Stranded on the Trent


Naughty Cal

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10 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Speaking from a position of both having a VHF radio and the licence to use the same I think something needs to be said about the actual practicality of their use on narrowboats on the tidal Trent, Severn, Thames and, if you like, the Ouse.

Do you mean tidal Trent, tidal Severn, Tidal Thames and Tidal Ouse? :)

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9 hours ago, matty40s said:

You have obviously had a fall out with your other half(again) and Graham has run out of sheep to bother.

Rusty has been quite clear in his statements and they are quite sensible.

I agree – but – maybe I do not understand

  1. The question

  2. The solution

  3. The response from other posters.

There is no need for C&RT (and no legal method) to provide a ‘licence’.

What is needed is a personal ‘qualification’ and that all lockies working the 1st Tidal lock ask for evidence, much as they ask for details of your boat licence.

This certificate of competence already exists in the form of the ICC and is used throughout (much of) the world as evidence of competence of boat handling and knowledge of boat / persons safety.

Take France for example – they have the mandatory qualification of the ICC, but it has not ‘killed’ their boat hire industry.

 

My Son has recently purchased a small (trailered) fishing boat and has found that he is unable to launch on any public slipways until he has taken and passed his “RYA Level 2 Powerboat” certificate, relevant to his area of operations – ie ‘coastal’ or ‘inland’.

This is all new to me (never applied ‘in my time’) but he has tried dozens of slipways within a 50 mile radius and only found one where he can access without the certificate

As it happens the ‘Level 2 Powerboat’ is the basis for the ICC qualification and can easily be ‘upgraded’.

 

The ICC qualification is readily available at dozens of providers and has proved to be workable all over the world – why should the UK be any different.

 

I believe this ‘anti-qualification’ state of mind comes more from ignorance and fear of failure rather than a true belief in the ‘freedom of the waterways’.

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13 hours ago, frangar said:

It has everything to do with the attitude of some people to their own safety...I consider auto lifejackets, VHF & an anchor a minimum for rivers like the Severn & Trent. 

I wear lifejackets for tidal rivers but tend not to for non-tidal unless they are in flood (I don't move my boat in flood conditions but regularly had to use a dinghy/outboard to get on and off my mooring on the Thames. I'd try to remember to wear a lifejacket when conditions were like that, but when you live on the river you often don't bother.

On the tidal Thames I remember going through Richmond on a sunny day wearing my lifejacket and seeing people drinking on hired rowing boats without a lifejacket in sight. 

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

My Son has recently purchased a small (trailered) fishing boat and has found that he is unable to launch on any public slipways until he has taken and passed his “RYA Level 2 Powerboat” certificate, relevant to his area of operations – ie ‘coastal’ or ‘inland

Maybe things are changing for the better. Allowing someone to operate a vessel capable of 25 knots plus may be ok and acceptable in open waters, but to get to those waters you often need to go close to other people and their vessels.

Perhaps some training may prevent speeding boaters in built up areas(not that it works for car drivers) :)

Edited by rusty69
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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The ICC qualification is readily available at dozens of providers and has proved to be workable all over the world – why should the UK be any different.

 

 

It is possible to obtain an ICC for the inland waterways with minimal experience by  attending a two day practical course that no one fails and then passing a CEVNI exam which is an online open book exam which , with a little effort, anyone could study for and pass.

I think most people with a couple of years experience would find the practical course a bit tedious .(RYA helmsman or Powerboat).

.

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12 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Thats why it should be compulsory along with boat and navigation  training :)

Sounds like another plan for more creeping layers of authority to screw more money out of people. And then no doubt it will be compulsory training for non-tidal waters including canals...

I've been on a VHF course and RYA ICC (CEVNI) course which included the basic inland helmsmans course, and I've got to say the quality of training on both was pretty poor. I've nothing against good quality training but I'm not so sure it should be compulsory.

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10 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Speaking from a position of both having a VHF radio and the licence to use the same I think something needs to be said about the actual practicality of their use on narrowboats on the tidal Trent, Severn, Thames and, if you like, the Ouse. Without an aerial fitted at the top of a mast as on a sailing yacht, or one of the long aerials fitted on some cruisers, the range is extremely limited. Whilst on the Trent I called up West Stockwith lock to tell them of my approach and could get no reception on the hand held further than about1/2 to 3/4 mile away. I've just come up the Ouse to Naburn and in a similar scenario called the lock-keeper when about a mile away (near Moreby Hall) and every 3 minutes afterwards, when the lock-keeper finally called (I hadn't actually called him for several minutes as I'd given up by then) I could actually see him on the lock side<_<. I'm not condemning VHF radio, but let's not overplay it's usefulness when the signal is getting blocked either by vegetation or high flood banks.

I also note that the commercial vessels using the waterways (Exon Pride and Humber Princess before her) both switch off their AIS once on the canals, which is a shame as sometimes it can be useful to see where they are and avoid.

I am a bit surprised by this experience - I can get 20-30 miles range with my setup (an 18 inch Shakespeare magnetic arial), and easily raised Stockwith from Gainsborough.

On one occasion I even picked up London VTS from near Sonning lock. I was quite tempted to call them up "London VTS NB Scholar Gypsy I am in Reading and reading you loud and clear" but decided against ...

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Marie is now docked.

Capture.jpg

1 minute ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I am a bit surprised by this experience - I can get 20-30 miles range with my setup (an 18 inch Shakespeare magnetic arial), and easily raised Stockwith from Gainsborough.

On one occasion I even picked up London VTS from near Sonning lock. I was quite tempted to call them up "London VTS NB Scholar Gypsy I am in Reading and reading you loud and clear" but decided against ...

A lot depends on the quality of the kit you are using and how well it has been installed.

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10 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I wear lifejackets for tidal rivers but tend not to for non-tidal unless they are in flood (I don't move my boat in flood conditions but regularly had to use a dinghy/outboard to get on and off my mooring on the Thames. I'd try to remember to wear a lifejacket when conditions were like that, but when you live on the river you often don't bother.

On the tidal Thames I remember going through Richmond on a sunny day wearing my lifejacket and seeing people drinking on hired rowing boats without a lifejacket in sight. 

Last year a narrowboat came into the visitor pontoon at Gunthorpe while we were already moored there.

He had removed his lifejacket after exiting the lock as he though it was no longer needed. Near the pontoon he slipped as he tried to step  off towards the pontoon but missed it , catching his arm on the pontoon. he came up dazed and in mild panic . I helped him out via the escape ladder while his wife just watched .  

A near miss but it did emphasize the risk of falling in. A lifejacket could have been more critical if I had not been there.

 

I also met an ex navy diver who had got into difficulty at Newark, just below Town Lock  - the under current had pinned him to the bottom for a while . If you fell in here a lifejacket could easily save a life.

 

We always wear life jackets on the non tidal Trent as well as the tidal and dont take ham off until the engine is  stopped. What other people do is entirely up to them but I would say drowning is just as likely in non tidal as it in tidal river.

 

 

  • Greenie 1
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10 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Last year a narrowboat came into the visitor pontoon at Gunthorpe while we were already moored there.

He had removed his lifejacket after exiting the lock as he though it was no longer needed. Near the pontoon he slipped as he tried to step  off towards the pontoon but missed it , catching his arm on the pontoon. he came up dazed and in mild panic . I helped him out via the escape ladder while his wife just watched .  

A near miss but it did emphasize the risk of falling in. A lifejacket could have been more critical if I had not been there.

I also met an ex navy diver who had got into difficulty at Newark, just below Town Lock  - the under current had pinned him to the bottom for a while . If you fell in here a lifejacket could easily save a life.

True, but then you could just as easily slip off a canal lock gate into a lock on a pleasant day, bang your head and not make it out. It's just as risky and how many of us wear lifejackets on every canal we navigate? 

Edit: The only time I've ever worn a lifejacket on a canal was after a big freeze. I was moving my boat on my own and realised how dangerous it was to be walking across icy lock gates so I went and grabbed a lifejacket.

Edited by blackrose
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3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

True, but then you could just as easily slip off a canal lock gate into a lock on a pleasant day and not make it out. It's just as risky and how many of us wear lifejackets on every canal we navigate? 

Very true. There is also the risk of falling off the boat when it is moored up, or falling off a slippery pontoon.

You have to draw the line somewhere and can not wear a life jacket at all times. That decision is up to each individual to make.

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11 hours ago, StephenA said:

If you're saying that anyone who is hiring a boat who will be doing non tidal rivers such as the Severn / Avon / Weaver will have to pass exams (and I assume provide that information to the hiring companies BEFORE they even complete their booking) then do you really expect people to actually hire a boat? How are overseas visitors who go boating supposed to get these qualifications before they even enter the country....

 

Would be a problem on the Broads too with hire fleet numbers in excess of 1000 vessels, and yes the Broads are tidal 

Phil

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59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Take France for example – they have the mandatory qualification of the ICC, but it has not ‘killed’ their boat hire industry.

However France does take an extremely pragmatic approach and do not require a licence for hiring a boat. The hire company is supposed to give instruction before the boat leaves and the steerer is issued a temporary licence valid for the locality of the hire. Obviously if the hirer is totally incompetent the hire company will not let the boat go out and his money is returned to him. (well that is the theory, but you can assess the odds on it happening yourself !).

It is much the same with VHF, which is mandatory on the Seine in the Paris region. However you often see hire boats in the vicinity of the Arsenal and none of these have radio.

Tam

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16 minutes ago, Phil Ambrose said:

Would be a problem on the Broads too with hire fleet numbers in excess of 1000 vessels, and yes the Broads are tidal 

Phil

But, and I repeat myself, in France a certificate of competence is required for private owners, but for hire boaters I is not.

Lets see what one of the biggest French hire boat operators says :

Be the captain of your own boat. No license or experience is required. It's that simple!  You come aboard and we show you everything you need to know during a briefing and demonstration.  Then you're off enjoying your holiday, it's like driving a car, but much easier and more relaxing!

For a 'private boat'

If you are planning to use the French canals and rivers, the boat's skipper must have an ICC certificate valid for Inland Waters (having passed the CEVNI exam). However, if you are planning to charter or use a French registered boat, you may need an ICC.

And then there is the

The Recreational Permit (Permis Plaisance)

On 1 January 2008, a new system introduced. The Permis Plaisance is available for four different purposes. There are four permit types, one each for sea and inland waters, each of which can be extended. An applicant must be at least 16 years of age and provide the examination centre with a medical certificate. A theory and practical test must be passed before the permit is issued.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
Written as Tam was posting his reply above
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It's not the first time that there's been an 'incident' at Top Gunness Wharf, immediately downstream of Keadby Bridge:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c70ede5274a42900000e7/maria-h.pdf

I've always been very impressed by how well this report was written, presented in a way that a layman with zero boating knowledge could pretty much understand every detail. RAIB (railway incidents) are written in much the same way and I expect AAIB (aircraft) are as well. It's all about learning as much as possible from an accident and nothing to do with pointing the finger of blame. That's for another department altogether!

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3 hours ago, Up-Side-Down said:

It's not the first time that there's been an 'incident' at Top Gunness Wharf, immediately downstream of Keadby Bridge:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c70ede5274a42900000e7/maria-h.pdf

I've always been very impressed by how well this report was written, presented in a way that a layman with zero boating knowledge could pretty much understand every detail. RAIB (railway incidents) are written in much the same way and I expect AAIB (aircraft) are as well. It's all about learning as much as possible from an accident and nothing to do with pointing the finger of blame. That's for another department altogether!

MAIB reports are always exellent as you rightly stated. They are all accessible on line also. The Nottingham Princess which I skippered came a cropper at Trent bridge and there is a full and photographic copy of it instantly available now online ( I was not driving that night ) it does show how little bridge clearance is for the vessel though. Of course the best one to read also on line is re the " Marchionesse "

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47 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

MAIB reports are always exellent as you rightly stated. They are all accessible on line also. The Nottingham Princess which I skippered came a cropper at Trent bridge and there is a full and photographic copy of it instantly available now online ( I was not driving that night ) it does show how little bridge clearance is for the vessel though. Of course the best one to read also on line is re the " Marchionesse "

There are several good reports on there. 

Love for Lydia is one all petrol powered sports boat owners should read. And Last Call.

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5 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

 The Nottingham Princess which I skippered came a cropper at Trent bridge and there is a full and photographic copy of it instantly available now online ( I was not driving that night ) 

Neither was I :P, but I did have a good skipper nearby.:D

Edited by matty40s
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13 hours ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I am a bit surprised by this experience - I can get 20-30 miles range with my setup (an 18 inch Shakespeare magnetic arial), and easily raised Stockwith from Gainsborough.

On one occasion I even picked up London VTS from near Sonning lock. I was quite tempted to call them up "London VTS NB Scholar Gypsy I am in Reading and reading you loud and clear" but decided against ...

Bearing in mind I was talking about the use of a hand-held marine radio, I am astonished at the result you get from yours since I don't get that sort of coverage on the open sea.

13 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Marie is now docked.

Capture.jpg

A lot depends on the quality of the kit you are using and how well it has been installed.

That is probably the crux of it, whilst for a boat that regularly goes to sea and uses tidal waters, the installation of a full on marine radio and functional aerial is well worth while, for the minimal use that the average narrow boat is going to make of it, it becomes a bit of a vanity project. Could you guarantee that a radio that has not been used for say 5 years or more is going to work perfectly when connected up for a single trip along the tidal Trent? Like I said, as a user, I'm not condemning VHF radio, just accepting it's limited value in many situations on rivers. Am I going to rely on number 1 eyeball to keep me out of trouble or am I going to bog around with the VHF trying to ask the boat who is all over the place,  what his intentions are?

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