More trouble - stop lever?

[magpie patrick]

Simple question - then onto more detail

Does the stop cable on a Lister ST2 cut off the fuel or the air?

Here is why I'm asking

We have nursed Lutine to Reading with a fair degree of success. Fixing the oil leaks has only been partially succesful but with a couple of oil changes Lutine has come down pretty well trouble free - easy to start (especially 9 pints of fresh oil rather than 18 pints of oil and diesel mix!) and confidence high to finally getting home - until this morning

The damn thing just won't start, turns over, what seems like fast enough and certainly at a speed that managed to start her earlier in the week when she barely turned over before starting. I've rung RLWP for ideas, I've checked, we are getting fuel at least as far as the fuel filter (take breather screw out, turn engine, fuel spurts out), the stop cable has gone back, it is still connected and it has pushed the stop lever back on the engine. 

It does, however, sound like it does when the stop cable is out - so is it possible that a connection inside the engine cover has come loose? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here? 

Thoughts?

I'm on the Thames above Caversham Lock, had hoped to be in Aldermaston tonight! We have a licence until Tuesday althoygh could do to go home before then

[Heffalump]

Not very helpful, but there's nothing in the workshop manual about it, it just tells you which positions to put it in!

It does mention decompressor levers for hand starting, which should be towards the flywheel when hand cranking. Is it possible that these have opened giving you that same sound?

[magpie patrick]

Thanks for that, no they're closed. In fact I've tried having them off to get the flywheel speed up and then closing them, doesn't fire, but a very different sound.

 

[MoominPapa]

To answer your original question: it cuts off the fuel. More specifically, it forces the fuel racks in the injection pumps to the extreme "no fuel" end of their travel. When the stop lever if NOT engaged, the racks should be free to move against the spring in the governor, and with the engine stopped, they should be at the maximum fuel position.

 

Cheers,

 

(the other) MP.

 

[Tony Brooks]

The stop lever pulls the injector pumps' control rack to the no fuel position.

If a pump has twisted in its clamp that might make the rack stiff enough  not to jump back to full speed when you release the stop. However fully opening the throttle will normally force it into the full speed position. I think you also have an excess fuel button to aid cold starting but if the rack is stiff it may not move to excess fuel.

Now you know why I was concerned about the poor stating last year.

Is there any chance you have sucked air into the fuel system? If so you may need to bleed the injector pumps (may be self bleeding) and then the main injector unions.

[magpie patrick]

Thanks Tony: the difficult start seemed to be resolved after the spill rack was replaced last November, and she has started very easily so far on this trip until now. 

Now she just won't go

Fuel is getting as far as the fuel filter, I know that, and I'm stumped how she's gone from one extreme to another

[WotEver]

Can you crack an injector union and see if you have fuel that far?

[nicknorman]

12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Can you crack an injector union and see if you have fuel that far?

Almost certainly he won't have - otherwise it would fire! But that might help if it's an air problem. Just picking up on the fuel rack I'd try pushing the throttle fully open (with the stop cable fully in) and tapping the injector pump area with a hammer / heavy spanner etc (not so hard as to cause damage, obviously!

when it's spinning over and not starting, does anything come out of the exhaust eg white smoke?

[magpie patrick]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Almost certainly he won't have - otherwise it would fire! But that might help if it's an air problem. Just picking up on the fuel rack I'd try pushing the throttle fully open (with the stop cable fully in) and tapping the injector pump area with a hammer / heavy spanner etc (not so hard as to cause damage, obviously!

when it's spinning over and not starting, does anything come out of the exhaust eg white smoke?

Answer to the last question - no! 

[Tony Brooks]

That suggests lack of fuel.

Nick - the SR has its individual  injector pumps behind cast side covers. Tapping the covers is very unlikely to have any effect.

I think the next steps are rocker covers off and spin over with the main injector union loose to see if any fuel is getting to the injectors.

If not then I fear its side covers off and bleed the injector pumps. Then try the injector unions again.

[magpie patrick]

Okay, rocker cover off. Which bit is the injector union? 

[Tony Brooks]

The ones you can't see in the photo I think. Its on the STEEL pipe that you can just catch a glimpse of below that rubber thing. It will have a much larger nut on than the leak off union you can see.

[magpie patrick]

Found it I think 

The suggestion is I loosen this and see if diesel leaks out when I turn the engine? 

[magpie patrick]

Done that - diesel spits out, so it's getting that far! (On one cylinder at least) 

Edited to add spits out of one cylinder but drips out of the other (Which I know to be weaker)

[mross]

https://canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/80008-lister-internal-fuel-leaks/

excellent photos here from an earlier post of RWLP's

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by mross

[WotEver]

Then it has to start and it's purely your imagination that it doesn't

I presume your fuel is clean with no water?

4 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Done that - diesel spits out, so it's getting that far! (On one cylinder at least) 

 

[Heffalump]

Have you checked the air system for blockages? Fuel to the pots leaves only suffocation or no compression!

[magpie patrick]

No compression is what worries me: I know this engine is on its last legs. Surely piston rings would give SOME warning before getting so bad? 

[nicknorman]

44 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

That suggests lack of fuel.

Nick - the SR has its individual  injector pumps behind cast side covers. Tapping the covers is very unlikely to have any effect.

I think the next steps are rocker covers off and spin over with the main injector union loose to see if any fuel is getting to the injectors.

If not then I fear its side covers off and bleed the injector pumps. Then try the injector unions again.

Oops sorry, one day I'll learn to keep my trap shut when I don't really know what I'm talking about! Is this the same engine that Junior had on Albion?

Edit: no that was a Petter PH2W

Edited August 4, 2017 by nicknorman

[RLWP]

What has happened to the oil feed pipe to the rockers?

Richard

[magpie patrick]

2 minutes ago, RLWP said:

What has happened to the oil feed pipe to the rockers?

Richard

You tell me? What's it supposed to look like? 

[RLWP]

2 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

You tell me? What's it supposed to look like? 

See that black tee piece stick out horizontally in your picture? It should be pointing down and be connected to a pipe. That's the rocker oil feed

Richard

[zenataomm]

I imagine at some point somebody has unattached the rocker oil feed union in order to crack the injector union.  Probably to check if fuel was leaking from them (original problem I believe?) Then they weren't reconnected (is the other pot the same??).

If you've been running without top end lubrication I'll bet the valves have welded to their guides or the rockers are stuck, meaning suffocation or no compression, either way it won't fire ...... will it Richard?

Edited August 4, 2017 by zenataomm
had to answer the door

[Tony Brooks]

26 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Oops sorry, one day I'll learn to keep my trap shut when I don't really know what I'm talking about! Is this the same engine that Junior had on Albion?

Edit: no that was a Petter PH2W

It was a valid comment as you did not know (and why should you) the minutia of Lister design. In other circumstances certainly worth a try a sit takes moment and should be non invasive/destructive.  Now as afar as the Petter is concerned I have no idea - never worked on one.

 

Edited to add:- I have just had a look at some images of PHWs and their injector pumps are of a similar type but they are mounted on the outside of the engine with an exposed control rod. That one would be easy to give the control rod a pull or shove to make sure its where you need it to be.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[magpie patrick]

The forward one (which for some time has been the weaker cylinder) has a pipe attached at the T joint, the rear cylinder does not and I can't even see a pipe for it to be fastened to!

Time for that new engine, but first I need to get off the Thames!