Canoe safety

[Peter-Bullfinch]

We crossed the Pontcysyllte Aqueducts in a strong wind today. There have been groups of canoeists back beyond Chirk over the last few days. It wasn't safe at all as we came towards the Trevor basin to be confronted by a large mixed group crossing in front of us. There were other narrowboats coming from the Llangollen basin ad also the Trevor basin arm trying to hold back to let us exit. Only with extreme care was I able to miss being blown towards the group. This was a crush hazard for them. 

There was a C&RT volunteer at the other end of the Aqueduct. His heart must have been pounding as he watched it all.

[magpie patrick]

Whilst it's daunting, and also they do get in the way, would a narrow boat blown onto a canoe crush it? It would be a scary experience, but I suspect a GRP canoe is stronger than that

[Dave Payne]

2 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Whilst it's daunting, and also they do get in the way, would a narrow boat blown onto a canoe crush it? It would be a scary experience, but I suspect a GRP canoe is stronger than that

Probably not, but it could maybe push it up at an angle and squash the occupant?

 

[rusty69]

They look like sea kayaks, pretty tough. 

[Peter-Bullfinch]

This is another view of all of them crossing the Aqueduct before the next narrowboat began its crossing. In retrospect it was the high gusty wind which was alarming me. Some of the young people looked equally concerned.

I feel that these young people would have been far safer and happier in one of the nearby meres at Ellesmere rather than this congested navigation. Even stretches of the nearby  River Dee would have been more suitable.

When I have reflected more and listened to all of you I will send my thoughts to the C&RT.

In my younger years I canoed  and kyacked extensively both competitively and in sea conditions.  I built my first canoe as a lath and canvas one so you can appreciate I may not be fully up to date with current practices!

[rusty69]

I reckon there is room for all. I certainly wouldn't want to deprive anyone of a crossing of the aqueduct. Perhaps the thing to do is restrict narrowboat movements for a certain time whilst the kayaks are out! 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Peter-Bullfinch said:

This is another view of all of them crossing the Aqueduct before the next narrowboat began its crossing. In retrospect it was the high gusty wind which was alarming me. Some of the young people looked equally concerned.

Was the wind blowing towards or away from the unprotected edge?

[Peter-Bullfinch]

They crossed each way. Once it was blowing them to the tow path, once it blew them to the unprotected edge. I know this is supposed to be an adventurous activity and I'm all for adventure for young people ...but... if I had been leading it my safety assessment would have said at this very busy time for so many novice narrowboat hirers this was not a good idea at all. 

I'm sure we would have all stayed out of the way and stopped for a few minutes, if we had known, by some one on the bank warning us. After all canoes can travel very quickly and are soon out of the way.

[Murflynn]

looks like a great adventure, giving the kids a rewarding experience and challenge; they will feel on top of the world tonight because they overcame the challenges represented by the adverse conditions.  

they will have learnt that if they can take responsibility for their own safety when paddling their own canoes (pun intended).

it's nice to see that not every youth adventure is constrained by an overly protective society.

were these kids on a PGL adventure holiday?  my kids did 2 weeks at Boreatton Park when they were young teenagers, they loved the different environment away from parents and teachers.

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, Murflynn said:

looks like a great adventure, giving the kids a rewarding experience and challenge; they will feel on top of the world tonight because they overcame the challenges represented by the adverse conditions.  

they will have learnt that if they can take responsibility for their own safety when paddling their own canoes (pun intended).

it's nice to see that not every youth adventure is constrained by an overly protective society.

were these kids on a PGL adventure holiday?  my kids did 2 weeks at Boreatton Park when they were young teenagers, they loved the different environment away from parents and teachers.

The mix of different canoe/kayak models doesn't suggest a large "centre" organisation.  Equally in the last pic they are more spread out than any professional Outdoor Ed instructor of my acquaintance would be happy with.

[MtB]

On 27/07/2017 at 18:15, Peter-Bullfinch said:

In my younger years I canoed  and kyacked extensively both competitively and in sea conditions.  I built my first canoe as a lath and canvas one so you can appreciate I may not be fully up to date with current practices!

 

In which case I cannot understand why you think a slow and lumbering narrowboat presents any sort of crushing risk to a quick and nimble canoe. The canooists know perfectly well they can get out of your way in a flash which is why they see no need to bother until you're pretty close. 

Just hold your course and they will all get out of your way in good time. If you tried your very best to crush one I bet you couldn't do it.

[Cheshire cat]

A bit like ducks with ducklings really

[Momac]

I was once overtaken by a kayak on the Fossdyke !

Locally we have a rowing club and there is  similar up towards Nottingham . Rowers and  canoes / kayaks are often seen . Or those  paddle boards where they stand up and paddle  . Occasionally need to slow or stop to let them pass . Mostly they see us coming and move to the side. Often it is very young people so I take account that they may not be fully in control. Not really a problem.

On a canal you could consider  stopping for a few minutes  and put the kettle on. They will soon be gone.

[magpie patrick]

I really don't want to see canoes discouraged - when the money runs out, and we can't afford narrow boats and CRT have gone bankrupt, canoes will be carrying the flag for retaining the canals by getting to those places that the rest of us can no longer reach

[Murflynn]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

In which case I cannot understand why you think a slow and lumbering narrowboat presents any sort of crushing risk to a quick and nimble canoe. The canooists know perfectly well they can get out of your way in a flash which is why they see no need to bother until you're pretty close. 

Just hold your course and they will all get out of your way in good time. If you tried your very best to crush one I bet you couldn't do it.

agree - when I was a kid in Reading I was out training in my kayak nearly every day for 3 years and we used to take the piss out of motor vessels by dodging about and enjoying the worried look on the helmsmans' faces, although we did have some respect for Salter's Steamers which could easily outpace us. 

[Tonka]

Most modern Kayaks and canoes today are actually plastic and are extremely strong.

[Detling]

9 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Most modern Kayaks and canoes today are actually plastic and are extremely strong.

The occupant is still flesh and blood though. Having seen what can happen to someones hand between a 15 cwt (750 Kg) boat and a bank I do not look forward to seeing the result of a canoe and a 10 ton + narrowboat and a bank. (the poor chap had every finger broken some in three places  and never regained a good grip or much dexterity.)

[rusty69]

23 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Most modern Kayaks and canoes today are actually plastic and are extremely strong.

I have a plastic kayak. The only time i would be concerned is if was hit head on by a narrowboat doing some speed. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by rusty69

[Martin Megson]

On 27/07/2017 at 15:55, Peter-Bullfinch said:

Only with extreme care was I able to miss being blown towards the group

So you are saying that the group had pulled over to let you pass and that you struggled to control your boat in the wind.  Perhaps the conditions were not suitable for narrow boats. I moored up early than planned today as a vicious cross wind was making navigation difficult. 

[Murflynn]

that doesn't compute.  I have rammed a plastic (GRP) kayak into a solid wall without damaging myself or the boat, and narrow-boats travel significantly slower than a keenly paddled kayak.

[rusty69]

20 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

that doesn't compute.  I have rammed a plastic (GRP) kayak into a solid wall without damaging myself or the boat, and narrow-boats travel significantly slower than a keenly paddled kayak.

That doesn't compute. Were you in the kayak or the narrowboat? 

[Murflynn]

kayak  

[jonathanA]

Kayak narrow boat and bank/concrete or cast iron of the aqueduct I wouldn't want to be in the kayak. They are NOT that tough they will tend to flex and I don't think I'd like to be in one in that situation 

[system 4-50]

Bringing a narrowboat against a kayak straight side to side against a bank would not be my worry, my concern would be if my narrowboat caused the kayak to tip so that it became a narrowboat-kayak-kayakist-bank sandwich. The kayak might survive without being squished but the kayakist might not. 

Kayakists in front below my bow where I can't see them are also a concern. They are fine if they do not make a mistake, but I suspect that not all kayakists are perfect, without ever catching a crab or the kayak equivalent.

[Taslim]

This thread reminded me of some, less than charitable, comments recorded on my dash cam about a bunch of Lydra Loonies cyclists on the lane to the house. Ho. Hum.

Whatever the rights and wrongs there is no way I would dare take a kayak over the Ponypuddleduct for all the cheap electronics in China. I don't do heights.