Electric or hybrid

[Dr Bob]

15 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

............. but what are the complications associated with producing methanol in large quantities?

Methanol is a simple process. Find a gas field to extract methane, convert to methanol. Ship in a VLCC to the customer. BP have been doing this in Trinidad for years. I expect a world scale methanol plant is now 1million tes per year. It is a raw material used in many chemical processes. 

BP did a huge amount of research on fuel cells using methanol. You can buy them for boats but methanol is too flammable for my liking. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Dr Bob

[by'eck]

To utilise the flexibility of all electric propulsion, batteries are required. Despite being around for over 150 years with constant efforts to improve on lead/acid battery technology, there is still nothing available that provides the sort of storage capacity needed for vehicle/boat propulsion at a reasonable price, weight and longevity. There is much hype about dramatic improvements in recent times, but if so why have we still not seen an all electric vehicle (or boat ) with similar range and performance that we have come to expect from conventional propulsion.

The only current viable option is a half way house with hybrid drives therefore. Solar power requires an impractical number of pv panels in most cases and still requires battery backup.

I await with interest to see what the future holds but if there was a solution on the horizon offering a dramatic increase in battery storage capacity, why haven't we heard about it?

[mrsmelly]

14 hours ago, peterboat said:

They do Tim Tesla do 300 plus miles and then recharge to 80% in half an hour so while you are having a coffee in the services it done others have similar abilities. Three other makers are putting in charging points across the UK even as we speak so the end of Diesel and Petrol cars is already happening, welcome to the 21 century sure you will enjoy it

Peter a " Tesla " when did they become affordable to Joe Bloggs?

[MtB]

On 28/07/2017 at 09:16, by'eck said:

To utilise the flexibility of all electric propulsion, batteries are required. Despite being around for over 150 years with constant efforts to improve on lead/acid battery technology, there is still nothing available that provides the sort of storage capacity needed for vehicle/boat propulsion at a reasonable price, weight and longevity. There is much hype about dramatic improvements in recent times, but if so why have we still not seen an all electric vehicle (or boat ) with similar range and performance that we have come to expect from conventional propulsion.

The only current viable option is a half way house with hybrid drives therefore. Solar power requires an impractical number of pv panels in most cases and still requires battery backup.

I await with interest to see what the future holds but if there was a solution on the horizon offering a dramatic increase in battery storage capacity, why haven't we heard about it?

 

My thoughts exactly.

The Govt announcing half a billion in research funding for battery technology seems to assume The Answer is bound to pop up at the end of the research. My view is that £1/2bn is pishing in the wind compared to the research effort already expended so far. We are not looking for the incremental changes currently being achieved, we are looking for a hundred-fold increase in stored energy density.

Let alone the holy grail of storing it in AC format ideally, which no-one ever mentions as it is regarded as impossible. 

[MtB]

On 28/07/2017 at 07:14, WotEver said:

 

No. I believe the last 20% must be done slowly to avoid damaging the batts. 

 

Actually a point occurred to me in the night. Lithium batteries are only supposed to be used within the range of 20% to 80% SoC anyway, aren't they?

[IanD]

In a narrowboat at cruising speed they typical engine power is about 4-5hp; at this output power a Beta 43 is about 20% efficient (34% at full power). Power stations are usually at least 40% efficient, or up to around 50% for the newer ones as older ones are taken out of service. Allowing for losses in grid transmission, inverter/charger/motor drive, motor and charging/discharging the battery, a plug-in electric narrowboat will still be at least 30% "well-to-prop" efficient when cruising, which is 50% higher than a diesel -- also zero fuel consumption when sitting in locks instead of an idling diesel, which increases overall efficiency a bit more. And no need to run the diesel (at very low efficiency, maybe around 15%) to charge batteries, which helps again.

Of course the higher efficiency and lower emissions (maybe around 40%-50% reduction in CO2 taking all this into account) doesn't really matter from an overall environmental impact point of view since there are at lease 100x more cars than narrowboats, but it's nice to know if you're trying to be eco-friendly.

A properly sized parallel hybrid narrowboat would also be more efficient than a diesel, but the current designs have too big a diesel and too small a motor/generator for this to be true. A Beta 43 with a 10kW (13hp) motor/8kW generator has too much overall power, and generator power is too low to get the diesel engine up into the high efficiency (>30%) region when cruising -- something like a 25hp diesel with a 20hp electric motor would be better. But the efficiency wouldn't be as good as plug-in electric because a marine diesel is less efficient than a power station -- maybe 20% lower CO2?

From a cost point of view the parallel hybrid makes little or no sense, the cost increase of adding the hybrid to the diesel will probably never be made up by the limited fuel savings. There are of course other big advantages like silent locking/cruising which people may think worth paying for.

An all-electric boat with plug-in charging probably would make economic sense, the efficiency (fuel cost) savings are bigger and the build cost would be lower (no diesel). And the charging time overnight and battery size/weight are not really a problem for narrowboats, unlike cars. But a dense network of charging points along the canals would be needed since even a big battery bank only gives a couple of days cruising, and the cost of building this means it will probably never happen...

[spreadsheet with diesel efficiency calculations attached, in case anybody is interested...]

prop.xls

[WotEver]

23 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Actually a point occurred to me in the night. Lithium batteries are only supposed to be used within the range of 20% to 80% SoC anyway, aren't they?

I've heard something like that but I know very little about Li batts. Lead Acid is something I know a lot more about but still only scratching the surface really. 

[Robbo]

29 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Actually a point occurred to me in the night. Lithium batteries are only supposed to be used within the range of 20% to 80% SoC anyway, aren't they?

They don't like been kept at 100%.   If you have a laptop always plugged in the battery tends to die quite quickly even though it's never really been used!

The high amp charge is also not recommend, kind of a only do if you really need to.

[MtB]

On 28/07/2017 at 10:29, Robbo said:

The high amp charge is also not recommend, kind of a only do if you really need to.

 

I'd say this would be my ONLY method of charging an electric vehicle, as I have no drive or garage to keep it in.

 

[Robbo]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'd say this would be my ONLY method of charging an electric vehicle, as I have no drive or garage to keep it in.

I wouldn't want to be in the queue for been first to see how long the battery last if this was my only choice to charge.   Although I can see street charging points installed like parking meters in residential areas where no drive/garages exist.

[MtB]

On 28/07/2017 at 10:45, Robbo said:

I wouldn't want to be in the queue for been first to see how long the battery last if this was my only choice to charge.   Although I can see street charging points installed like parking meters in residential areas where no drive/garages exist.

 

How about in the CRT car parks and the lay-bys boaters like me use, dotted along the canal system?

[Robbo]

Just now, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

How about in the CRT car parks and the lay-bys boaters like me use, dotted along the canal system?

Well car parks n the likes where people regularly park would be needed as well.    If you think about it from a national grid PoV, a slow charge is much better than quick high amp charges where the grid would need to supply very high peaks for short periods of time before and after work hours.   It's also what Nuclear is good at in providing a stable supply.  If the chargers where smart and where controlled by National Grid demand that would be ideal.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

My thoughts exactly.

The Govt announcing half a billion in research funding for battery technology seems to assume The Answer is bound to pop up at the end of the research. My view is that £1/2bn is pishing in the wind compared to the research effort already expended so far. We are not looking for the incremental changes currently being achieved, we are looking for a hundred-fold increase in stored energy density.

Let alone the holy grail of storing it in AC format ideally, which no-one ever mentions as it is regarded as impossible. 

In my view that could well be part of a long term plan to allow governments (at the behest of the string pullers) to tax private transport out of existence. Its just one thread with others coming on every few weeks. If immigration is stopped or severely reduced I can see much to recommend having a workforce confined to walking or cycling distance for commerce and industry. Probably verging on the paranoid but...................................

1 minute ago, Robbo said:

Well car parks n the likes where people regularly park would be needed as well.    If you think about it from a national grid PoV, a slow charge is much better than quick high amp charges where the grid would need to supply very high peaks for short periods of time before and after work hours.   It's also what Nuclear is good at in providing a stable supply.  If the chargers where smart and where controlled by National Grid demand that would be ideal.

What do you think the true intention behind Snark Meters and the internet of things is all about?

[bizzard]

2 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I wouldn't want to be in the queue for been first to see how long the battery last if this was my only choice to charge.   Although I can see street charging points installed like parking meters in residential areas where no drive/garages exist.

Most folk I reckon live in semi's, flats and such with no drive way or garage. In a great many heavily populated urban areas in and around towns and city's your lucky if you can park in the same street as you live, never mind outside your house. Throughout the country millions of charging points would need to be installed in these urban areas at about 6' apart, otherwise pedestrians would be tripping over cables, garrotting themselves on them ect.  All these charging points would open up a huge new crime wave, be open to vandalism, plugs yanked out of vehicles, cables stolen for their copper wires and all.

[MtB]

And never mind coming back to your car after waiting five hours for it to charge only to find the scroats in the flats nearby have unplugged your car and plugged in their extension lead going back to the flat so they get to nick your five hours of electicity!

[bizzard]

I f you run out of electricity whilst driving along, which is bound to happen as folk do with diesel and petrol cars, you won't be able to walk to a garage with a can and fill it up with elctricity, walk back and pour it in and off you go again. You would need to carry a hefty great trolley to hump heavy exchange batteries instead, connect em up, cleaning bad connections and all to make it go. All this carry on would make you very late for work, a funeral or wedding.

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And never mind coming back to your car after waiting five hours for it to charge only to find the scroats in the flats nearby have unplugged your car and plugged in their extension lead going back to the flat so they get to nick your five hours of electicity!

Zactly!

[peterboat]

I know that a lot dont like this, but the reality is other countries that produce cars will be stopping production of petrol/diesel cars in the 2020s, so you are going to have to get used to electric vehicles it will happen, and no matter how much you complain and stamp your feet they will be consigned to history! Technology is already forging ahead of lithium batteries [sodium glass to name one], so dont worry the future is quiet and electric and if you like the sound of a diesel engine record it soon because boats will go the same way.

[bizzard]

The world will be a world of mass electrocutions and horrid acrid electrical stinks mingled with burning flesh.

Edited July 28, 2017 by bizzard

[Robbo]

6 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I know that a lot dont like this, but the reality is other countries that produce cars will be stopping production of petrol/diesel cars in the 2020s, so you are going to have to get used to electric vehicles it will happen, and no matter how much you complain and stamp your feet they will be consigned to history! Technology is already forging ahead of lithium batteries [sodium glass to name one], so dont worry the future is quiet and electric and if you like the sound of a diesel engine record it soon because boats will go the same way.

I can see car accidents going up if ya can’t hear em!  Good job they more likely have pedestrian detection.

[bizzard]

34 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I can see car accidents going up if ya can’t hear em!  Good job they more likely have pedestrian detection.

They will need lolly sticks attached to the wheel arches adjusted to buzz on the wheel spokes as they go round to imitate engine noise, several lolly sticks to each wheel would sound like the twin V12 Bugatti Veiron thing.    Like we did on our bicycles, one lolly stick clicking on the wheel spokes sounded like a Bond Mini car. Not only for audible warning of you approach but for nostalgic reasons too, ''the sound of your favourite long lost car engine'',  a massive increase in the sales of lollypops for this reason, with hundreds of different lengths and thicknesses of sticks to imitate your favorite car engine noise.

Edited July 28, 2017 by bizzard

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Actually a point occurred to me in the night. Lithium batteries are only supposed to be used within the range of 20% to 80% SoC anyway, aren't they?

True, but the reason lithium batteries are used (e.g. in cars, laptops, phones...) is small size and low weight for a given energy capacity, not long lifetime. Where size and weight don't really matter (e.g. narrowboats) wet 2V traction batteries are a lot cheaper and have longer life. This is still true even for future price projections from companies like Tesla, who are pushing their Powerwall concept for home energy storage. If eventually the price of lithium (or some other new technology) batteries becomes lower and the lifetime becomes longer than lead-acid this will change, but no sign of this happening in the near future.

Edited July 28, 2017 by IanD

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, Robbo said:

I can see car accidents going up if ya can’t hear em!  Good job they more likely have pedestrian detection.

We picked up a Renault Zoe on the way home the other week as it was going to Liams garage for a repair the next day.

At slow speeds through town it warbles. We intially thought something was amiss with it. But no. It warbles to warn pedestrians of its presence. 

[Naughty Cal]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

True, but the reason lithium batteries are used (e.g. in cars, laptops, phones...) is small size and low weight for a given energy capacity, not long lifetime. Where size and weight don't really matter (e.g. narrowboats) wet 2V traction batteries are a lot cheaper and have longer life. This is still true even for future price projections from companies like Tesla, who are pushing their Powerwall concept for home energy storage. If eventually the price of lithium (or some other new technology) batteries becomes lower and the lifetime becomes longer than lead-acid this will change, but no sign of this happening in the near future.

Lithium batteries have been used in the Greenline range of boats since they started production in 2010 (Could be a year or so out here) so they are not a new concept when it comes to marine usage.

http://www.greenlinehybrid.si/comfort-1/

All of the Greenlines 33's that we have seen still have their original set of batteries fitted.

That said we will when we get around to hunting for one to buy factor in buying a new set. At almost £4k to replace the pair of batteries it won't be a cheap job!

http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/brands/relion-batteries/

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Lithium batteries have been used in the Greenline range of boats since they started production in 2010 (Could be a year or so out here) so they are not a new concept when it comes to marine usage.

http://www.greenlinehybrid.si/comfort-1/

All of the Greenlines 33's that we have seen still have their original set of batteries fitted.

That said we will when we get around to hunting for one to buy factor in buying a new set. At almost £4k to replace the pair of batteries it won't be a cheap job!

http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/brands/relion-batteries/

Sailing boats and GRP boats care more about size and weight than narrowboats. Those lithium batteries cost £2400 for 12V 260Ah (5000 cycles to 80% DOD claimed) which is 77p/Wh. 2V traction cells cost £115 for 2V 1000Ah (1250 cycles to 80% DOD) which is <6p/Wh, or 23p/Wh for 4 sets to get the same lifetime as lithium. So for the same capacity and lifetime, lithium batteries are currently more than 3x as expensive as traction lead-acid -- and you have to pay the whole sum up-front, not spread over many years.

Edited July 28, 2017 by IanD

[nebulae]

My RoverP5B is nearly 50years old.I cant see why it wont last another 50. I dont care if they stop building new petrol and diesel cars cars. I am sure there will be some garages left to supply me with fuel. If pushed,I might change to lpg.