Electric or hybrid

[Detling]

I can't see any benefit from a hybrid except that you have a big generator on the boat. The main benefit of a hybrid vehicle is to capture the energy used to brake the vehicle ie. recharge the battery with some of the electricity that was used to accelerate the vehicle (the engine usually provides all the constant speed power), thus reducing the overall energy consumption. A boat cannot benefit from this, indeed often considerable energy will be used in astern gear just to avoid that boat coming through the bridge where we meet each other. Maybe a diesel electric has slight benefit (as used in many buses now) as the diesel is run at optimum conditions (ideal revs and full load) to charge the battery, the diesel electric bus has total electric drive but also uses regenerative (charging) braking to help charge the battery. This reduces the buses fuel consumption by upto 50% on most routes, (didn't work in hilly Sheffield we tried, only got 10% reduction in fuel so would take 100 years to payback) this system also allows a few Km of pure electric drive in city centers.  These diesel electric buses are even effective in Hong Kong although the Aircon requirement makes life hard.  The lithium batteries  cost a fortune and have to be well looked after never below 20% and never above 80% they also benefit from being used regularly so the daily bus is good.  I suspect the new trains we are getting instead of pure overhead electric power, will be diesel electric, although if battery technology gets good enough you could just put short overhead power lines at the stations and in the sidings to recharge onboard batteries.

[DHutch]

I can see the benefits of a diesel electric boat in terms of smoothing out supply and demand allowing engine downsizing. Boat boats have a lumbered great 2l four pot lump rated at 40-50hp so they have enough power to get round a tight corner/junction, and to feel sprightly out of a lock where almost all the rest of the time a fraction of that power is needed.

I can also see the point of electric boats on terms of quiet operation and zero emissions at the point of use, and this could I feel certainly catch on reasonable fast for term hire, day boats, powerboat hire, etc.

But the other thing is net global effect. Narrowboats are so grossly outnumbered by cars/lorries/trains/ships it will be a long time till the work in engineering a good solution and providing infrastructure to support it, will get to the top of the list.

Electric powered bulk oil tanker anyone? Electric container ship? Maybe start with electrifying the rest of the mainline?

 

Daniel

[Naughty Cal]

3 minutes ago, DHutch said:

I can see the benefits of a diesel electric boat in terms of smoothing out supply and demand allowing engine downsizing. Boat boats have a lumbered great 2l four pot lump rated at 40-50hp so they have enough power to get round a tight corner/junction, and to feel sprightly out of a lock where almost all the rest of the time a fraction of that power is needed.

I can also see the point of electric boats on terms of quiet operation and zero emissions at the point of use, and this could I feel certainly catch on reasonable fast for term hire, day boats, powerboat hire, etc.

But the other thing is net global effect. Narrowboats are so grossly outnumbered by cars/lorries/trains/ships it will be a long time till the work in engineering a good solution and providing infrastructure to support it, will get to the top of the list.

Electric powered bulk oil tanker anyone? Electric container ship? Maybe start with electrifying the rest of the mainline?

 

Daniel

Electric day boats are nothing new.

https://www.broadstours.co.uk/broads-electric-day-boat-hire/

Hybrid hire boats are becoming more popular as well.

http://www.barnesbrinkcraft.co.uk/brinks-rhapsody/

http://www.barnesbrinkcraft.co.uk/our-boats/detail/44/

Edited July 27, 2017 by Naughty Cal

[DHutch]

Just now, Naughty Cal said:

Electric day boats are nothing new.

https://www.broadstours.co.uk/broads-electric-day-boat-hire/

Indeed, if still the exception not the rule. The Thames electric launch company where knocking out electric boats when then current (sorry) technology was glass case lead acids.

But I don't know of an electric day narrowboat?

Daniel

[Naughty Cal]

3 minutes ago, DHutch said:

Indeed, if still the exception not the rule. The Thames electric launch company where knocking out electric boats when then current (sorry) technology was glass case lead acids.

But I don't know of an electric day narrowboat?

Daniel

They do exist. A quick google has brought these up:

http://castlenarrowboats.co.uk/

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Detling said:

I can't see any benefit from a hybrid except that you have a big generator on the boat. The main benefit of a hybrid vehicle is to capture the energy used to brake the vehicle ie. recharge the battery with some of the electricity that was used to accelerate the vehicle (the engine usually provides all the constant speed power), thus reducing the overall energy consumption. A boat cannot benefit from this, indeed often considerable energy will be used in astern gear just to avoid that boat coming through the bridge where we meet each other. Maybe a diesel electric has slight benefit (as used in many buses now) as the diesel is run at optimum conditions (ideal revs and full load) to charge the battery, the diesel electric bus has total electric drive but also uses regenerative (charging) braking to help charge the battery. This reduces the buses fuel consumption by upto 50% on most routes, (didn't work in hilly Sheffield we tried, only got 10% reduction in fuel so would take 100 years to payback) this system also allows a few Km of pure electric drive in city centers.  These diesel electric buses are even effective in Hong Kong although the Aircon requirement makes life hard.  The lithium batteries  cost a fortune and have to be well looked after never below 20% and never above 80% they also benefit from being used regularly so the daily bus is good.  I suspect the new trains we are getting instead of pure overhead electric power, will be diesel electric, although if battery technology gets good enough you could just put short overhead power lines at the stations and in the sidings to recharge onboard batteries.

This ^^^^.

Also with an electric boat or hybrid you get to replace ££££'s worth of batteries in one go, rather than drip feeding the cost as with diesel, even if you can get the batteries to last 10 years (most won't get half of that).

[Murflynn]

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Nobody has made yet, to my knowledge, a fully solar powered boat.

try this one for size: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tûranor_PlanetSolar

[jddevel]

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Fully electric power is not viable at the moment as there are no charging points on the canals.

I think you may have answered the question regarding the pictures on the forum sometime ago displaying a jump lead dangling in the water and one on the pontoon side!!!

[mad dog n' Englishman]

Have a look for  wide beam boat "Tulak" builders  Elton Moss boats. This looks all electric.   Canal boat mag Jan 2017

[Robbo]

3 hours ago, Neil2 said:

Actually Lulu Fish is probably right as far as the UK is concerned, as most of our electricity is generated by "clean" sources and coal accounts for a negligible proportion.  She was talking about pollution remember, not general efficiency which is more debatable.  The current enthusiasm for electric power assumes the electricity will increasingly come from renewables, together with a move towards decentralisation of power generation. 

I wouldn’t say gas was a clean source, just better than coal.

[Detling]

18 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I wouldn’t say gas was a clean source, just better than coal.

You are correct, I understand the UK's gas power stations produce as much NOX as all the diesel vehicles on the road, about the same as jet aircraft.  But we like the lights to come on, and we want our summer holiday so can't count aircraft, particularly at take off, as NOX is the same density as air the stuff they spew out at 30,000 feet stays up there, but the plume they leave on the runway just drifts round at ground level.

[Neil2]

5 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Figures from the National Grid.

http://gridwatch.co.uk/

40% supply from gas and coal at midday.

I'm familiar with that site, I have it on constantly that's how I know coal fired stations contribute next to nothing to the grid these days, in fact some days nothing at all.   

[peterboat]

8 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

They don't work simples!! Those that " nearly " work cost eighteen billion pounds to purchase and install and 14 billion to keep replacing batteries etc. Same with the silly cars. I often do a round trip of  300 miles in a day and a few times a year do one of 500 miles in the day sometimes more. I do this with one 5 minute fuel stop at a choice of thousands of petrol stations. Can any pro electric car owners " not hybrids " please as they basically run on an internal combustion engine let me know of any car that can do that journey without more than one stop of several hours each? and also I pay typicaly a couple of grand tops for my cars which last me ages at little cost ( Japanese usualy now ) and when will that cost of motoring be available to Joe Bloggs? will it be with his " affordable " housing that is presently being built?

They do Tim Tesla do 300 plus miles and then recharge to 80% in half an hour so while you are having a coffee in the services it done others have similar abilities. Three other makers are putting in charging points across the UK even as we speak so the end of Diesel and Petrol cars is already happening, welcome to the 21 century sure you will enjoy it

[Bromleyxphil]

Well that lit the blue touch paper, thanks for all the replies I have a lot of reading to do at the weekend.........guess what no mention of composting toilets........yet!!!

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Bromleyxphil said:

Well that lit the blue touch paper, thanks for all the replies I have a lot of reading to do at the weekend.........guess what no mention of composting toilets........yet!!!

Get one in They really are the better option, my new boat will be getting one and I have ripped out the pump out to fit it!!

[peterboat]

Apparently Rotherham/Sheffield is marked as a high pollution town/city so money will be available to sort this out, whats the betting its with a ban on diesels or pay a penalty to enter. The document I looked at today was quoting roads and the two for us was the A630 and the A57, not quite sure how this works and I can lay money that the two councils wont either, but it wont stop them making up the rules as they go along..................

[MtB]

On 27/07/2017 at 19:02, peterboat said:

They do Tim Tesla do 300 plus miles and then recharge to 80% in half an hour 

 

What current do they charge at? 

What capacity battery is it that can do 300 miles then charge to 80% in half an hour?

Will the final 20% take another 7.5 minutes presumably?

[DHutch]

I'm reading this for the first time myself after googling it, but....

The Tesla Model S is a full-sized all-electric five-door, luxury liftback, produced by Tesla, Inc. The EPAofficial range for the 2017 Model S 100D, which is equipped with a 100 kWh (360 MJ) battery pack, is 335 miles (539 km), higher than any other electric car. The EPA rated the 2017 90D Model S's energy consumption at 200.9 watt-hours per kilometer (32.33 kWh/100 mi) for a combined fuel economy of 104 miles per gallon gasoline equivalent (2.26 L/100 km or 125 mpg‑imp).

Details on chargers also given. It appears 10-20kW is common but upto 120kW is available.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

What current do they charge at? 

What capacity battery is it that can do 300 miles then charge to 80% in half an hour?

 

Daniel

[WotEver]

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

What capacity battery is it that can do 300 miles then charge to 80% in half an hour?

Note that the 80% figure is, as I understand it, the optimal charge for those batteries when fast charging. So 0% to 80% is the charge range that's expected to be most used. They're not like LA batts that will lose capacity from sulphation by doing so. 

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Will the final 20% take another 7.5 minutes presumably?

No. I believe the last 20% must be done slowly to avoid damaging the batts. 

[jddevel]

2 hours ago, DHutch said:

The Tesla Model S is a full-sized all-electric five-door

The only problem with the Teslas that I immediately notice is I`ll have to make a choice. Narrowboat or car. I certainly and might I suggest the majority of inhabitants of the UK can`t afford well over £50000 for car. I must admit I have a Lamborghini but then that`s a tractor. I certainly would like to see more research  into hydrogen and the safety issue.

[Naughty Cal]

22 minutes ago, jddevel said:

The only problem with the Teslas that I immediately notice is I`ll have to make a choice. Narrowboat or car. I certainly and might I suggest the majority of inhabitants of the UK can`t afford well over £50000 for car. I must admit I have a Lamborghini but then that`s a tractor. I certainly would like to see more research  into hydrogen and the safety issue.

I would also like to see more research into Hydrogen.

Whilst we were stuck at Banavie for 3 days with no electric hook up running the engine for hours on end just to add a few extra amps to the batteries we were pondering our other options for power generation in such circumstances. The obvious choice would be to add solar. But we are limited to the size of panels we could fit and where and being Scotland it was dull and raining at the time o power generation would still have been limited.

Our next choice was one of these:

https://www.efoy-comfort.com/how-it-works

Now we know that these are used extensively in Sweden on boats where running engines in anchorages is frowned upon. But we didn't know what our Boat Safety Scheme would make of their use.

If they would pass our boat safety inspection then we would seriously consider adding one to the boat.

[Murflynn]

............. but what are the complications associated with producing methanol in large quantities?

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, Murflynn said:

............. but what are the complications associated with producing methanol in large quantities?

The same as Hydrogen which is why it hasnt really taken of its energy intensive to produce and very flammable

[jddevel]

Personally I compare the funding problems of research into hydrogen or methanol with the reluctance of the people who sign the cheques to those in the 70s regarding the installation/use of computers. They don`t understand so funding is difficult

[WotEver]

19 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

If they would pass our boat safety inspection then we would seriously consider adding one to the boat.

Logic would suggest that spare fuel cells would have to be kept in a gas locker and that the device itself would be subject to the same general requirements as an inboard engine, however I think a letter to the BSS would be the only way to find out exactly what they'd want to see.