Buying Batteries

[WotEver]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Personally I can't see it. A slightly lower charging voltage but still 14V + I think woud still fully charge the battery but just take longer doing it.

I'm with you on that. 13.6V will eventually fully charge a wet 12V battery but it will take an awful long time to do so. 

[Tony Brooks]

I have just posted the paragraph I mentioned in my post above.

[Robbo]

36 minutes ago, cuthound said:

In the critical power industry, all VRSLA batteries are of the AGM type, and since their introduction in1980 have completely replaced wet cells.

This is because they are safer in an enclosed environment like server rooms, can be installed in any position and better in cold environments.

[WotEver]

13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have just posted the paragraph I mentioned in my post above.

So you have. 

More new stuff to research and try to understand because my first question has to be "Why?"  

[Tony Brooks]

Because before I email/talk to Multicell I would like to be better informed. Its no good me telling them its bullshine as written if I have nothing to back it up with..

More to the point, if it really is true then the OP needs to know because in many cases it extra expense and it may make him decide to go flooded cell.

[WotEver]

Sorry, I meant "why" do Multicell state that the voltage 'must' be higher. Not why did you post their statement

[Alan de Enfield]

Just for comparison :

This months 'Boat Owner' magazine :

(Bullet points as I'm not typing out the whole article).

Super B's latest lithium battery, the Epsilon, makes looking for fixed charging points a thing of the past.

The Epsilon SB12v 1200w/h is a drop in lead acid replacement. It weighs 12.5 kgs. Can be fully charged in 1 hour and has a life of 5000 cycles.

Features internal battery management.,

Priced at £1,499 each

[Robbo]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just for comparison :

This months 'Boat Owner' magazine :

(Bullet points as I'm not typing out the whole article).

Super B's latest lithium battery, the Epsilon, makes looking for fixed charging points a thing of the past.

The Epsilon SB12v 1200w/h is a drop in lead acid replacement. It weighs 12.5 kgs. Can be fully charged in 1 hour and has a life of 5000 cycles.

Features internal battery management.,

Priced at £1,499 each

That's rather expensive for a 90ah LifePo4 battery.  I think the Relion's are now around £950 for a 100ah, which are also a drop-in replacement. - although the super-b has a few more stuff like bluetooth monitoring stuff.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Robbo

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Robbo said:

This is because they are safer in an enclosed environment like server rooms, can be installed in any position and better in cold environments.

Nope, it is because of the vastly reduced whole life costs compared to wet cells.

VrSLA's are cheaper to buy and don't  nend regular topping up, or periodic test discharges to assess capacity.

Manufacturers such as Yuasa warranty them on a sliding scale for 6 years, 100% cost refunded for failures in year, down to nothing in year 7.

Never seen any VRSLA,s in the hundreds of  server roomside I have been in, the servers are supplied by dedicated UPS or rarely, DC plant in seperate air conditioned rooms.

In telephone exchanges they are usually  co-located with the switch and transmission equipment racks, but this environment is only compressor cooled when it exceeds 35°C, as BT found it is cheaper to replace batteries early rather than provide full air conditioning for the equipment. Cooling for 85% of the year is by fan assisted fresh air only.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Robbo said:

That's rather expensive for a 90ah LifePo4 battery.  I think the Relion's are now around £950 for a 100ah, which are also a drop-in replacement. - althought the super-b has a few more stuff like bluetooth monitoring stuff.

I think I will stick with FLA and can buy 20 (@ £60), get 5 years from each of them (100 years), that'll do me.

[Tony Brooks]

Yesterday I emailed this to Multicell:

Dear Sir

I answer the technical Q&As for Canal Boat magazine as well as having well over 50 years experience in automotive and autoelectrical engineering.
While doing research to identify cost-effective and suitable batteries formy boat's domestic electrical system I came across this statement on your
website in respect of your AGM batteries.

"Requires a higher voltage charging regime than standard FLA / SFL (charging equipment would need to be adjusted)".

This implies that the majority of standard inland marine and automotive (pre ECU controlled) alternator will need to be changed or modified if your AGM
batteries are to be fitted.

I  ask you to further explain and justify this statement. My understanding is that a very old 13.8 volt alternator would fully charge a modern AGM
battery eventually while the more modern alternators with a 14 .2 to 14.5 volt regulator should charge them much faster and be perfectly acceptable. I
would also like some charging voltage figures from you and your thoughts on the effects of the 14.8 volts alternators that are in use.

I have just received a reply but feel it is wiser to report and paraphrase it rather than quote it in full.

Multicell declined to give any voltages but said they advised that customers fit an A to B device. They then go on top say their web page statement does not mean older equipment will not do and it implies nothing other than  THEIR (my capitals) AGM batteries require a higher charging voltages. There was also some bullshine about people misinterpreting to suit their particular scenario.

Another gem was that, I quote, "fit an AtoB charger from Sterling, this covers most scenarios and in our opinion improves the charging efficiency. " As a battery company I wonder if they understand charging efficiency. I understand charging efficiency is to do with the batteries, not the charging source as charging efficiency relates to how much electricity is converted to chemicals, not how fast of slow it charges.

 

I have replied regretting they are unable to provide a maximum, minimum, and recommended charging voltage and questioning their recommendation to fit extra equipment from a company who's attitude to customer service can be odd at times.

I think that we can conclude from this that Multicell may not be the wisest choice for batteries, especially AGMs. It looks like they are setting up their excuses for not honouring  any guarantee.

[Robbo]

17 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Yesterday I emailed this to Multicell:

 

If there not telling you the voltages how the hell can you program chargers with the required voltages to charge at!  Even the a to b charger requires setting up!

Edited July 28, 2017 by Robbo

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Robbo said:

If there not telling you the voltages how the hell can you program chargers with the required voltages to charge at!  Even the a to b charger requires setting up!

Absolutely. As I said it could be interpreted as lining up the excuses for selling poor quality, failure prone batteries.

[matty40s]

12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Absolutely. As I said it could be interpreted as lining up the excuses for selling poor quality, failure prone batteries.

We were told yesterday by Multicell that 663 type batteries are no longer available.......

[WotEver]

24 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Absolutely. As I said it could be interpreted as lining up the excuses for selling poor quality, failure prone batteries.

Either that or it's simply marketing bods who are trying to make their batteries sound somehow 'special'. As we've previously discussed I don't understand their statements at all. 

[Tony Brooks]

Actually I think you are right in the latter.

I am very cross about their apparent withholding of vital charging information from their potential customers and those who advise the said customers.

Here is one person who will not buy batteries from them for ANY piece of equipment until they change their tune.

[jddevel]

18 hours ago, matty40s said:

663 type batteries are no longer available

Part of my delivery yesterday from Alpha batteries were 2 x 663 batteries.

[matty40s]

39 minutes ago, jddevel said:

Part of my delivery yesterday from Alpha batteries were 2 x 663 batteries.

Which is why I mentioned Multicells statement...

[Tony Brooks]

If anyone is interested.

Today I got a phone call from a lady at Multicell who actually gave me a figure of their batteries needing 14.8 volts. She claimed that in their experience if it was less than this their AGM batteries will be ruined in (I think she said) a few months. I tried every which way I could to get her to accept that voltage is not the be all and end all in battery charging and that time being charged is also vital. She refused to accept that a little lower charging voltage applied for long enough to fully charge the batteries should also be acceptable. It seems that I was supposed just to accept her/Multicell's assertions because they are "battery experts"

After a good deal of very firm discussion during which she made the odd personal comment I said I wanted a scientific explanation for their claim and that "we are the experts" is not good enough. Eventually she said she would ask their operations director to phone me. I await with baited breath and not much hope, especially as Companies House do not list an Operations Director.

Interesting that this "battery expert" had never heard of Daganite batteries that was one one of the premiere UK brands and I think associated with Exide. I was a Daganite agent for a while at one time.

I still have no altered my view about the advisability of fitting their batteries until this is resolved on a better basis than "we are the experts".

[smileypete]

Multicell almost certainly get their AGMs made by another manufacturer, and are just passing on their charging requirements.

If the charging equipment can't generate the voltages needed,  there's many other brands of AGMs, and other types of lead acid batt.

Maybe buying AGMs from the likes of Trojan and US Battery would get you access to a better source of technical help if they make them in house.

My gut feel is that a correct charge voltage is best for getting the batts out of deep discharge, and that the belief that any old lower voltage will do, is probably mistaken It did come about in the Gibbo era :). IMHO it MIGHT work OK-ish for shallow discharges but take that as information only.

I would expect that in order to get the supplier/manufacturer to stand behind their product, you need to follow their charging requirements.

Edited August 3, 2017 by smileypete

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, smileypete said:

My gut feel is that a correct charge voltage is best for getting the batts out of deep discharge, and that the belief that any old lower voltage will do, is probably mistaken It did come about in the Gibbo era :). IMHO it MIGHT work OK-ish for shallow discharges but take that as information only.

Surely when a deeply discharged battery is connected to a charging source, the intital charging voltage will be relatively low as the source is likely to be in  current limitation. 

However in the latter stages of charging a higher voltage will help drive the charging current to break down any sulphation. 

[Tony Brooks]

Of course it will be but the lady told me they demanded 14.8 in BULK. I asked her what the acceptance voltage should be and she went on about float.

I have now been emailed by their MD saying they will only communicate with me via solicitors and threatening legal action. He also said he will be telling RCR that my comment may be affecting their sales. All to save giving a proper justification for their claims ............................. if they can!

The way the whole thing has developed is baffling. They seem to be concentrating on charging voltage rather than voltage AND time. It makes no sense to me and by the latest email it seems they think bully boy tactics are more productive than rational discussion and explanation.

They have also refused to provide a written explanation for their claim. Now I need to  consider if its worth taking to the ASA. If I do I think I may need more than my assertions to back up me claim that the website is misleading. is there anyone here who is willing to email me explaining why they think the claim is misleading if indeed they do?

[smileypete]

9 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Surely when a deeply discharged battery is connected to a charging source, the intital charging voltage will be relatively low as the source is likely to be in  current limitation. 

However in the latter stages of charging a higher voltage will help drive the charging current to break down any sulphation. 

Yes, I'd have thought a lower than recommended charge voltage won't break down sulphation as well, and lead to capacity loss over time. Also some (all?) wet batts may rely on some gassing to de-stratify the electrolyte if the batt is fairly stationary, like on a narrowboat.

Seems the non sealed el cheapos do OK on 14.4V, maybe their design is tailored for when older vehicles only charged up to that voltage.

[smileypete]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Of course it will be but the lady told me they demanded 14.8 in BULK. I asked her what the acceptance voltage should be and she went on about float.

Sounds like they got their wires crossed and meant 14.8V in acceptance. At least they're trying to get the correct info.

Maybe they had a load of warranty returns from people charging them at 14.4V, especially if for example these customers blindly followed misleading statements in the manual of their combi/charger, Sterling springs to mind.

Have you a linky to their website where they give the charging requirements?

Edited August 3, 2017 by smileypete

[cuthound]

2 minutes ago, smileypete said:

Yes, I'd have thought a lower than recommended charge voltage won't break down sulphation as well, and lead to capacity loss over time. Also some (all?) wet batts may rely on some gassing to de-stratify the electrolyte if the batt is fairly stationary, like on a narrowboat.

Seems the non sealed el cheapos do OK on 14.4V, maybe their design is tailored for when older vehicles only charged up to that voltage.

Not sure that stratification is the problem it is often made out to be.

Many telecommunications plant are permanently on float, at 2.2v per cell, so not enough to gas them,  and they never move off the battery racks, yet I never encountered stratification.