Disillusioned

[Alan de Enfield]

37 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

So are we saying that anybody who buys a boat mid month, and wants it licensed from the point they buy it has no way of securing the 10% prompt payment discount?

I haven't been and checked chapter and verse, but that sounds a bit unfair if true.

Absolutely and, not only do  lose the 'prompt payment', you have it backdated 2, 3, or 4 weeks (so end up with an 11 month licence) & they could actually charge you the 'late payment surcharge' if it has been un-licenced for a month (as you have agreed to the T&Cs which say they can !!)

Qualifying criteria for prompt payment discount :

The payment and correctly completed application (and any enclosures) must have been received by the Canal & River Trust or a licensing agent before the start date of the licence.  In cases of doubt where we have no record of receiving an application, we will accept a formal proof of posting from Royal Mail or other professional dispatch service.

If you allow your licence to lapse for more than one month, you will also have to pay a fixed Late Payment Charge of £150.  The Licence must be back dated to the expiry of the previous licence, unless you provide evidence that the Boat was not on the Waterways for the intervening period.  The late payment charge is a fair reflection of the additional cost incurred by the Canal & River Trust in collecting overdue licence fees.

If the Boat has been kept on our Waterways without a licence during the twelve months preceding your application, the prompt payment rate will not be granted, regardless of who owned the Boat.  Furthermore, the late payment charge will apply if we have evidence that the Boat has been on our Waterway without a licence for more than one month.

Note well :

The phrase "during the last 12 months" which means even if it was without a licence for just one day DURING the last 12 months

It does NOT say 'without a licence for the 12 months preceding .......'

I pays to read the small print when dealing with C&RT !!!

Edited July 24, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Have you given up looking for  boat ?

Have you sold the house yet ?

I'll give you a wave as we pass you (Aberdeen) towards the end of August

I have not given up certainly not, I can't get this darn house done and dusted, its been on and then fell through, conflicting advice from all points of the compass, folks do not understand the process, which is complex, unneccessarily so.

I thought I had a cash sale, turned out he had no cash!!!!! Another tyre kicker due tomorrow.

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by LadyG

[BWM]

5 hours ago, markeymark said:

Hi, I have paid for a boat but as yet I do not have the keys to it. I called the CRT to licence it and asked them to licence it from August (next week). However they insisted that because I had paid for the boat that I pay for it to be licensed from July. It also licensed in the name of the vendor for the whole of July so this means that CRT gain 2 amounts of money for July. Can this be legal? Before I have even sailed away into the sunset...or cloud as it it presently is I am disillusioned and thinking of selling the boat.

Where will the boat be until the 1st of August? If it is off line then no licence should be needed until you wish to move onto crt waters.

[WotEver]

OP hasn't been back since he made his one and only post. 

[Heffalump]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

OP hasn't been back since he made his one and only post. 

Aye but to be fair it looks like it was posted before work this morning so perhaps won't be checking in during the day.

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Heffalump said:

Aye but to be fair it looks like it was posted before work this morning so perhaps won't be checking in during the day.

Good point well made

[LadyG]

Not to worry, its all chit chat, 

[Neil2]

1 hour ago, Heffalump said:

Aye but to be fair it looks like it was posted before work this morning so perhaps won't be checking in during the day.

Either that or he's too busy drafting a advert for Apollo Duck.

[Heffalump]

Just now, Neil2 said:

Either that or he's too busy drafting a advert for Apollo Duck.

Smirk!

[AllanC]

If you have already paid for the licence Markey then I would suggest you just suck it up and accept it. You will only lose another month of licence fee when you sell it. Just sail off into the sunset and enjoy your boat.

 

 

 

[markeymark]

Hi there, thanks to all for the informative opinions on this sticky situation. As it happens CRT have capitulated today and started the licence from August 1st which is what I had first asked them to do. I did explain that the boat could not be licensed to 2 different people in the same month (i.e. the vendor and the purchaser) and that surely it was immoral to do so and get 2 lots of licence fee. Will be on the cut from next week and do hope to meet some of you . My plan is to start a floating cabaret/circus boat and tour the canals for 6-7 months per year. The boat will be out of the water for this winter whilst I have work done to build a stage on the well deck amongst other things. Any ideas most welcome. I am doing this solo with my 2 dogs so if anyone is up for working with me then let me know. Its all about fun and laughs, NOT about the money. Satirists welcome.

Thanks again

[Captain Pegg]

When I purchased my boat I applied for the licence online at about 2300 on 30th November thinking it would commence on the 1st December. It turned out CRTs system defaulted to start the licence on 1st November demonstrating they have surprising levels of automation. I didn't actually complete until the 4th Decemebr so I rang them up and explained and they changed the start date to 1st December (or capitulated if you prefer).

I suspect it's just the way the system works. My experience is that CRT systems are cumbersome but the staff are helpful.

I assume though you have a business licence for your venture?

JP

[Sea Dog]

53 minutes ago, markeymark said:

My plan is to start a floating cabaret/circus boat and tour the canals for 6-7 months per year. 

Well, this has been a handy experience for you then - you've had a free lesson to help you not make a similar mistake when you change to your business licence...

[markeymark]

Hi Jp, I have no licence as yet for a business. This plan is not a normal business as it is not to generate an income; its a philanthropic venture not-for-profit with the aim of giving something to canal life and not about making money. My fall-out with CRT was based on principle not on being stingey, but why should I pay 86 quid to them when they have already been paid it by the previous owner and anyway that money would be for the last 4 days of July which is  very steep. I am not rich but I am not that stupid either!

Hi Sea Dog, yep you are right about that....got any ideas on how to approach the licence issue for not-for-profit ?

[Graham Davis]

1 hour ago, markeymark said:

Hi there, thanks to all for the informative opinions on this sticky situation. As it happens CRT have capitulated today and started the licence from August 1st which is what I had first asked them to do. I did explain that the boat could not be licensed to 2 different people in the same month (i.e. the vendor and the purchaser) and that surely it was immoral to do so and get 2 lots of licence fee. Will be on the cut from next week and do hope to meet some of you . My plan is to start a floating cabaret/circus boat and tour the canals for 6-7 months per year. The boat will be out of the water for this winter whilst I have work done to build a stage on the well deck amongst other things. Any ideas most welcome. I am doing this solo with my 2 dogs so if anyone is up for working with me then let me know. Its all about fun and laughs, NOT about the money. Satirists welcome.

Thanks again

A boat can have 2 different people licensing it, just as a car can. The same rules apply. I see nothing immoral over this.

And I would be careful about voicing your intentions of running a business from your boat, since I think you will need a Traders Licence to do that.

[Sea Dog]

3 minutes ago, markeymark said:

Hi Jp, I have no licence as yet for a business. This plan is not a normal business as it is not to generate an income; its a philanthropic venture not-for-profit with the aim of giving something to canal life and not about making money. My fall-out with CRT was based on principle not on being stingey, but why should I pay 86 quid to them when they have already been paid it by the previous owner and anyway that money would be for the last 4 days of July which is  very steep. I am not rich but I am not that stupid either!

Hi Sea Dog, yep you are right about that....got any ideas on how to approach the licence issue for not-for-profit ?

Not my area of expertise Mark, but I agree with JP - for me, CRT have always been helpful when you actually speak to someone. I'd give them a call to sound them out - after all, it worked pretty well for you the first time.

I'd also try to see today's result as a fair and reasonable response by CRT rather than a capitulation. When you wish to do something as unusual as you intend to, they'd be better as friends than enemies.

[Captain Pegg]

10 minutes ago, markeymark said:

Hi Jp, I have no licence as yet for a business. This plan is not a normal business as it is not to generate an income; its a philanthropic venture not-for-profit with the aim of giving something to canal life and not about making money. My fall-out with CRT was based on principle not on being stingey, but why should I pay 86 quid to them when they have already been paid it by the previous owner and anyway that money would be for the last 4 days of July which is  very steep. I am not rich but I am not that stupid either!

Hi Sea Dog, yep you are right about that....got any ideas on how to approach the licence issue for not-for-profit ?

Ask CRT is the obvious answer. I would guess it's still a business if there is an income even if there is no profit (or is it no dividend/salary??). Some of the roving traders on here may be able to offer advice.

JP

[markeymark]

No, the immoral part was the fact that I asked for the boat to be licenced from August because I knew the handover would not be until the end of the month (July) but they insisted I pay from mid July. Its a bit like buying something on ebay and which is being sent from China; you may have paid for it online but you cant enjoy it until it arrives which could be weeks away.

[markeymark]

Thanks , I intend to contact CRT again but first I want get out on the cut after waiting for months and then I will ask traders and in particular The Village Butty who are doing something similar in London. This venture is going to encompass clowning, comedy, satire, buskers, cinema, dance, open mic and more. I am financing it but the performers will get any income.

[markeymark]

Just to add that maybe capitulation was a strong word to use but at the time as soon as I questioned the wisdom and rationale for this apparent rip-off, the person I spoke to at CRT was very  off-hand with me so I felt like I had a battle on my hands. When I called the next day to complain I was given short thrift and told to complain on-line, not exactly what you want when you have decided to give up being a land-lubber and go make a life on the canals.

Just now, markeymark said:

Just to add that maybe capitulation was a strong word to use but at the time as soon as I questioned the wisdom and rationale for this apparent rip-off, the person I spoke to at CRT was very  off-hand with me so I felt like I had a battle on my hands. When I called the next day to complain I was given short thrift and told to complain on-line, not exactly what you want when you have decided to give up being a land-lubber and go make a life on the canals.

Quote

Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is a present...enjoy it

 

[Mike Tee]

Another way round this problem is if the boat is sold through a broker, some of them can put the boat on their 'trade plates' while it is for sale. The boat does not therefore need either a license or a mooring if physically at the brokers place of business. Then it is a matter of timing the sale with the broker for near the start of the month.

Or as previously mentioned, if the cost of one months license is that big a deal, you have the wrong hobby.

[Athy]

11 hours ago, markeymark said:

 My plan is to start a floating cabaret/circus boat and tour the canals for 6-7 months per year.

So we'll easily recognise your boat, as it'll be the one with the elephant on the well deck and the horses running along the gunwales.

Seriously, it is good to hear that you have sorted this problem out, and good luck with your venture.

[MtB]

On 24/07/2017 at 21:59, Mike Tee said:

Another way round this problem is if the boat is sold through a broker, some of them can put the boat on their 'trade plates' while it is for sale. The boat does not therefore need either a license or a mooring if physically at the brokers place of business. Then it is a matter of timing the sale with the broker for near the start of the month.

Or as previously mentioned, if the cost of one months license is that big a deal, you have the wrong hobby.

 

This raises another point. If the circus boat is not being operated with a view to making a profit, then does the OP need the business licence people here are mentioning?

I think the answer will be yes, as it is a 'trader licence' whether or not it is being done for profit.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This raises another point. If the circus boat is not being operated with a view to making a profit, then does the OP need the business licence people here are mentioning?

I think the answer will be yes, as it is a 'trader licence' whether or not it is being done for profit.

If you dig down deep into he T&Cs for a 'Circus Licence' you will note that not only does each animal need to registered and inspected annually by the RSPCA, but each performer must be registered with the 'Performing Arts Society'.

But - more seriously

The boat will need to have permission / a licence from the local Authority for the playing of music and entertainment, and if the boat is cruising, this may mean for every local authority area it passes thru'.

The boat will need licences from BOTH the PRS and PPL for performances held in public places (I know from when we had to have them, that the cost of the licence is determined by the distance that the 'noise' can be heard, &/or the number of people that can hear it - so on an 'open canal' it will be a rather large area).

The PPL licence for (example) within the confined space of an aircraft (the nearest to a boat I can find) the licence for 1-100 people is £643 per annum rising to £2573 for 500 people.

 

For those disbelievers here is the page from the PPL tariff list.

 

PPLPP044.pdf

[croftie]

42 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This raises another point. If the circus boat is not being operated with a view to making a profit, then does the OP need the business licence people here are mentioning?

I think the answer will be yes, as it is a 'trader licence' whether or not it is being done for profit.

Not forgetting he will need Public Liability Insurance