> > > CRT DEATH TRAP FACILITIES < < <

[rowland al]

5 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

I admit the original link was out of date but added because it contained some useful information.

Maybe I should have provided a more specific and appropriate link but I honestly thought if anyone had any real intrest they could easily used google themselves,  at that point I hadn't looked at the company's house link myself.

I lived not far from there for a good few years and the marina was private and owned by the Middletons or at least they had a financial intrest ( the family who used to own chirk castle and still live there) and I think it was one of the historic anomalies that didn't need a boat licence to use.

All of the above could have changed since I left but as far as I understand the place is private and has no link with CRT.

Anyway I've learned a lot more about Chirk marina than I ever wanted to

That's usually the case with these things.

I think the whole issue of accountability and liability is interesting. When serious stuff happens and people get badly injured or killed you rarely see CEO's ending up in prison. 

To be fair, it's almost impossible for a CEO to ensure everything is squeaky clean. For one thing, they don't always get true information from those who report to them. It's also very difficult to prove there was any deliberate neglect or intent.

The more layers you can put between you (the CEO) and any 'issue', the better when it comes to blame! The trouble is it's us who are paying for these layers. 

Anyway, probably not relevant in this case it appears,

[rowland al]

Whist on Google I was trying to find a list of all CRT assets. I thought that may show for certain whether Crick Marina is 'owned' by them. Maybe I am hopeless with Google but I couldn't find such a list, which surprises me. Surely that should be public information?

I did find an FOI request for such a list but unfortunately it seems they applied to DEFRA, so the response was just to ask CRT.

[Paul C]

1 minute ago, rowland al said:

Whist on Google I was trying to find a list of all CRT assets. I thought that may show for certain whether Crick Marina is 'owned' by them. Maybe I am hopeless with Google but I couldn't find such a list, which surprises me. Surely that should be public information?

I did find an FOI request for such a list but unfortunately it seems they applied to DEFRA, so the response was just to ask CRT.

Surely such a list would be meaningless in itself, because just as in this situation, ownership doesn't mean its not leased out to someone else; and with that lease, unless you had sight of the contract (which understandably could be confidential between the parties involved) you'd not know if CRT or the leasee were responsible for maintenance etc.

[junior]

Sounds like it's all CRT's fault to me.

[rowland al]

8 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Surely such a list would be meaningless in itself, because just as in this situation, ownership doesn't mean its not leased out to someone else; and with that lease, unless you had sight of the contract (which understandably could be confidential between the parties involved) you'd not know if CRT or the leasee were responsible for maintenance etc.

Possibly, but I think it's more interesting that a list of CRT's assets are not publically available, well unless I am just rubbish with search engines of course. 

You'd think any organisation funded by public money should be open to scrutiny. Maybe that's a bit naive.

[Paul C]

20 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Possibly, but I think it's more interesting that a list of CRT's assets are not publically available, well unless I am just rubbish with search engines of course. 

You'd think any organisation funded by public money should be open to scrutiny. Maybe that's a bit naive.

Have you asked them for a list of their assets?

[rowland al]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

Have you asked them for a list of their assets?

No, have you?

Shouldn't it be available without having to ask? That's the point I was making. 

[Paul C]

2 minutes ago, rowland al said:

No, have you?

Shouldn't it be available without having to ask? That's the point I was making. 

No, but then I'm not bothered. No I don't think it should necessarily be available without having to ask. All's well if it is though (I've not looked). I know some public bodies list (some of their) assets but I don't feel there's a massive need to, over & above the normal reporting requirements of accounts etc.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, rowland al said:

Possibly, but I think it's more interesting that a list of CRT's assets are not publically available, well unless I am just rubbish with search engines of course. 

You'd think any organisation funded by public money should be open to scrutiny. Maybe that's a bit naive.

Really? So where can I find the list of assets owned by my local authority then? Or the NHS? Or any other public body?

And since you say "any organisation funded by public money" perhaps every private company that does work for the public sector should be listing its assets for public view too?

 

[rowland al]

24 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Really? So where can I find the list of assets owned by my local authority then? Or the NHS? Or any other public body?

And since you say "any organisation funded by public money" perhaps every private company that does work for the public sector should be listing its assets for public view too?

 

What's the problem if you have nothing to hide?

[Graham Davis]

If you want to find out all that CaRT "own" , wouldn't it be listed on the Land Registry?

[David Mack]

11 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

If you want to find out all that CaRT "own" , wouldn't it be listed on the Land Registry?

The Land Registry will tell you who owns a particular piece of land, but do they allow a reverse search to find all the land belonging to one owner?

[bozlite]

3 hours ago, rowland al said:

Whist on Google I was trying to find a list of all CRT assets. I thought that may show for certain whether Crick Marina is 'owned' by them. Maybe I am hopeless with Google but I couldn't find such a list, which surprises me. Surely that should be public information?

I did find an FOI request for such a list but unfortunately it seems they applied to DEFRA, so the response was just to ask CRT.

British Waterways produced this list in response to a 2011 FOI request: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/64438/response/173723/attach/2/Land and Property owned by British Waterways.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

[rowland al]

43 minutes ago, bozlite said:

British Waterways produced this list in response to a 2011 FOI request: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/64438/response/173723/attach/2/Land and Property owned by British Waterways.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Thanks, great find! It's surprising how much they own, especially in Scotland. It's not a searchable list but can't see Chirk on there so I guess that was a bum steer. 

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Thanks, great find! It's surprising how much they own, especially in Scotland. It's not a searchable list but can't see Chirk on there so I guess that was a bum steer. 

Didn't TM say that some time back

Edited July 24, 2017 by ditchcrawler

[Wanderer Vagabond]

6 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Thanks, great find! It's surprising how much they own, especially in Scotland. It's not a searchable list but can't see Chirk on there so I guess that was a bum steer. 

My computer was able to search it, and no, Chirk isn't on it. Does that mean, as Tree Monkey keeps on telling us, that it is private?

[Paul C]

6 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

My computer was able to search it, and no, Chirk isn't on it. Does that mean, as Tree Monkey keeps on telling us, that it is private?

CRT obviously own and run it but in some kind of conspiracy theory, its been missed off the list.

[Iain_S]

15 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Thanks, great find! It's surprising how much they own, especially in Scotland. It's not a searchable list but can't see Chirk on there so I guess that was a bum steer. 

The stuff in Scotland was not transferred to CaRT, but retained by British Waterways, part of wihich, British Waterways (Scotland), now trades as "Scottish Canals".

Edited July 24, 2017 by Iain_S
edit fur speling

[rowland al]

6 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

My computer was able to search it, and no, Chirk isn't on it. Does that mean, as Tree Monkey keeps on telling us, that it is private?

Yes, it looks like it and I thanked him for providing the useful information. Much more constructive than all the sarcastic comments.

 

[tomsk]

This thread is downright weird.

[rowland al]

13 minutes ago, Paul C said:

CRT obviously own and run it but in some kind of conspiracy theory, its been missed off the list.

Oh look, another constructive sarcastic comment.  

Never mind, it'll stop raining soon.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

3 hours ago, rowland al said:

What's the problem if you have nothing to hide?

I think the 'problem' comes under the heading of commercial sensitivity. Let us say that, as an organisation, you have acquired nearly all of the land that you need to build a particular facility, except for one plot. If the owner of that plot is made aware that his plot is the last 'piece of the jugsaw' he can hold up the development by insisting on a price for the plot that outstrips it's market value. Would it not be wise  to keep this information to yourself? or would you prefer public organisations paying well above market prices?

[rowland al]

3 minutes ago, tomsk said:

This thread is downright weird.

Not really. It's just how newbies are treated here. A bit like being fed to the the lions, well the keyboard warriors.  

2 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I think the 'problem' comes under the heading of commercial sensitivity. Let us say that, as an organisation, you have acquired nearly all of the land that you need to build a particular facility, except for one plot. If the owner of that plot is made aware that his plot is the last 'piece of the jugsaw' he can hold up the development by insisting on a price for the plot that outstrips it's market value. Would it not be wise  to keep this information to yourself? or would you prefer public organisations paying well above market prices?

I wasn't aware CRT are buying up land or that they were a commercial company. 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

6 minutes ago, rowland al said:

 

I wasn't aware CRT are buying up land or that they were a commercial company. 

Since they file their accounts with Companies House and sell land they seem to do things that commercial companies do. They are a business, much the  same as Eton College is both a charity and  business. In fact judging by the 'chuggers' I keep running into in most town centres who are after my banking details for charitable purposes, most charities seem to be businesses these days

[Paul C]

34 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Oh look, another constructive sarcastic comment.  

Never mind, it'll stop raining soon.

Bless.

Its quite clear from the original post that the whole basis of the complaint towards CRT is flawed, because it is not CRT who is responsible. I knew Chirk Marina wasn't one of CRTs although obviously behind the multitude of marina operators, not 100% own the land; thus its possible they were leasing/renting the facility; and its also possible that they were leasing it off CRT. Whether there is an indirect claim/proportion of responsibility to the underlying landowner, I'm not so sure anyway. So whether CRT actually own the land or not isn't the issue anyway.

I do believe the OP has a valid claim against the operator responsible, which in the absence of other details, seems to be "Chirk Marina". Its a shame this message has been diluted by inaccuracies and the nature of the approach taken. Whether this is a newbie or not, is immaterial - I don't think newbies have an exemption from posting inaccuracies.

In addition, I was being semi-sarcastic - I believe it is still perfectly possible that CRT are in fact the underlying owner, but they may have chosen to not include Chirk Marina on the list, for commercial confidentiality reasons or another reason. There is a big disclaimer on every page, after all!