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CRT licence argument


dm6045

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Hi all when we brought the boat last month we sorted our licence online the day we got the keys arranged to pay in installments etc everything fine got sent through the discs etc no problems we thought. Last weekend the licence checker came round our marina and we then got an email to say that our boat has been spotted unlicensed called the number on the email and it turns out that either the brokers or the original owners had gone online to cancel there licence but as we had already done that online when we added the boat to our account it had actually cancelled ours but the person on the phone said that she would sort it out for us, then yesterday we had a letter from crt giving confirmation of the termination of the licence and the refund amount less 91.667% of the total plus £30 refund charge. so we get back on the phone and they are insisting we have to be charged that and that they have relicenced it from the original day that we brought the licence  but as i didn't cancel it why am I paying an extra £116.00 for someone elses mistake? we said we will pay it if they deduct that amount from the new licence but aparently they cant do this and bassically it looks like we have no choice.

any advice on what to do?

 

thanks

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6 minutes ago, dm6045 said:

any advice on what to do?

Insist that they fix it.

Email, write by recorded delivery, speak to the supervisor, speak to his supervisor, threaten legal action... whatever it takes. It's their mistake, they should fix it. 

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Write a letter politely requesting they get their house in order so you can proceed as required.

Depend on the out come of that, you could if you wanted send them a cheque for the amount you owe them, ie the cost of the licence excluding the bizarre £116 charge explaining your situation.

Generally CRT are reasonable in most cases, but having inheritanced various arrangements from BW and significantly reduced funding from the government, they have a huge shortfall to find and are still working on how and where to source it from!

Daniel

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49 minutes ago, dm6045 said:

....brokers or the original owners had gone online to cancel there licence but as we had already done that

I would suggest the problem is of your own making;

You should not have cancelled the previous owners licence - had you not done, then, when they (rightly) called to cancel THEIR licence C&RT had only one licence on the boat and thus cancelled it.

I guess you could have a 'slight' argument in that C&RT should not have let you cancel a licence that is not in your name.

I would suggest that you go 'cap-in-hand' to C&RT and apologise for causing them the problem, but would they please re-instate it.

  • Greenie 1
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19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest the problem is of your own making;

You should not have cancelled the previous owners licence - had you not done, then, when they (rightly) called to cancel THEIR licence C&RT had only one licence on the boat and thus cancelled it.

I guess you could have a 'slight' argument in that C&RT should not have let you cancel a licence that is not in your name.

I don't think that argument is as 'slight' as you're making out. The OP acted in good faith by using CRT's online system to ensure that the boat was licensed in his name from the day he bought it, cancelling the existing licence (in the previous owner's name) as part of that process. If the CRT system leaves room for errors of the sort that has occurred, because it can't discriminate between current and former owners of a boat and work out who should or shouldn't be allowed to cancel its current licence, that's hardly his fault. It seems to me that either the new owner should somehow be 'locked out' until the former owner has cancelled their licence, or the former owner should somehow be locked out once their licence has been cancelled. At the very least, there should be appropriate warnings/instructions about who should do what and in what order.

Edited by magictime
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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest the problem is of your own making;

You should not have cancelled the previous owners licence - had you not done, then, when they (rightly) called to cancel THEIR licence C&RT had only one licence on the boat and thus cancelled it.

I guess you could have a 'slight' argument in that C&RT should not have let you cancel a licence that is not in your name.

I would suggest that you go 'cap-in-hand' to C&RT and apologise for causing them the problem, but would they please re-instate it.

But it shouldn't be possible to cancel someone else's licence since you have to register your details online.

It's just another of CaRT's online cock ups like when my son received a letter thanking him for informing them of him selling his boat to himself! Or my bank account being debited twice for my licence fee. They really need to get a grip!

Keith

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It's not quite clear what the process was, when the OP rights 'but we had already done that online' as to if that included cancelling the old license, or starting a new one, or if one required the other,etc. Don't needed to do it myself yet.

However certainly, while I'm not sure who and when should be responsible for canceling the old license, it makes no sense at all for the former owner to be able to cancel the new owners licence! 

I would say 'imagine if the dvla was this disorganised' but sadly I shall hold my breath for obvious reasons given what I've seen them mess up.

 

Daniel

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28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest the problem is of your own making;

You should not have cancelled the previous owners licence - had you not done, then, when they (rightly) called to cancel THEIR licence C&RT had only one licence on the boat and thus cancelled it.

I guess you could have a 'slight' argument in that C&RT should not have let you cancel a licence that is not in your name.

I would suggest that you go 'cap-in-hand' to C&RT and apologise for causing them the problem, but would they please re-instate it.

 Thanks for everyones advice

I actually wasnt aware i was cancelling there licence at the time all i did was transfer the boat registration number on to my account  and licenced it because as far as i was concerned thats what i had to do i was now the owner so i was responsible for that maybe that was wrong but i had no idea that it would cancel anything in anyone elses name. Its a bit like being stuck between a rock and a hard place i thought i was being organised and doing what i had to do maybe i should have left it a few days then licenced it. But then that would have probably been wrong.

It was only on the phone last week that that was explained i had no idea that i could cancel theirs or that they could cancel mine because although its the same licence number its different details on different accounts and surely they should not be linked.

Edited by dm6045
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1 minute ago, dm6045 said:

should have left it a few days then licenced it.

That would be the 'norm' if you licenced it from (say) the 20th June, then the licence fee would have not only backdated to the 1st June, but you have not been credited with the early payment - because - in C&RTs system you actually paid 3 months overdue.

If you had licenced it (or had applied for the licence to take effect) 1st July then you would have had a 12 month licence (instead of an 11 month licence) and saved £100s by getting your early-payment bonus.

Unfortunately folks don't realise (or read the small print) until its too late.

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2 minutes ago, dm6045 said:

 Thanks for everyones advice

I actually wasnt aware i was cancelling there licence at the time all i did was transfer the boat registration number on to my account  and licenced it because as far as i was concerned thats what i had to do i was now the owner so i was responsible for that maybe that was wrong but i had no idea that it would cancel anything in anyone elses name. Its a bit like being stuck between a rock and a hard place i thought i was being organised and doing what i had to do maybe i should have left it a few days then licenced it. But then that would have probably been wrong.

As I said, it shouldn't be possible. The new owner isn't allowed to carry on with the existing licence so when you licence it, if the previous licence is still in force, there should be two licences in force until the previous owner cancels his. If, on the other hand, the old licence is automatically cancelled when a new one is applied for it should come up as cancelled online.

Keith

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That would be the 'norm' if you licenced it from (say) the 20th June, then the licence fee would have not only backdated to the 1st June, but you have not been credited with the early payment - because - in C&RTs system you actually paid 3 months overdue.

If you had licenced it (or had applied for the licence to take effect) 1st July then you would have had a 12 month licence (instead of an 11 month licence) and saved £100s by getting your early-payment bonus.

Unfortunately folks don't realise (or read the small print) until its too late.

Yes i realise that but we were never going to get the early payment anyway as it was being payed in installments and i dont understand where the ' 3 months overdue' came from we've only had it a month. 

And that doesnt have anything to do with the current problem of other people being able to cancel licences nowhere in the ts&cs does it say anything about that so i dont grasp why i should go cap in hand to crt when all i did was take responsibility for a boat on the day that i became responsible for it.

5 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

As I said, it shouldn't be possible. The new owner isn't allowed to carry on with the existing licence so when you licence it, if the previous licence is still in force, there should be two licences in force until the previous owner cancels his. If, on the other hand, the old licence is automatically cancelled when a new one is applied for it should come up as cancelled online.

Keith

Precisely thats why i thought id get it done as crt are very happy to tell you that licences are no longer transferable and that its your responsibility to licence it when you buy a boat. And that is what i thought would happen i would have a liscence and the previous owners wouod have licence untill they cancelled it.

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A letter to CRT copied to the Information Commissioner and to your Mp. Point out that it appears that you are able to phone up CRT and cancel anyone's licence just by telling them to and that this seems more than a bit "not fit for purpose", as that ghastly over used phrase goes. 

CRT do seem Togo out of their way to be incompetent and need multiple public kicks up the arse. BW were so much nicer...

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6 minutes ago, dm6045 said:

And that is what i thought would happen i would have a liscence and the previous owners wouod have licence untill they cancelled it.

That's certainly what happened on the last boat I bought.

It had two licences for a short time - 'the seller' lost a month of licence fee, + got his 'partial' refund. Whilst the buyers fee is backdated to the 1st of the month, the 'sellers' licence cancellation is forward dated to the end of the following month.

That's what happened to me / him anyway

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1 minute ago, Stilllearning said:

A letter to CRT copied to the Information Commissioner and to your Mp. Point out that it appears that you are able to phone up CRT and cancel anyone's licence just by telling them to and that this seems more than a bit "not fit for purpose", as that ghastly over used phrase goes. 

CRT do seem Togo out of their way to be incompetent and need multiple public kicks up the arse. BW were so much nicer...

I did think this because it means that if you add a boat to your account online just by copying the number painted on the side you can then cancel anybodies licence and if this does cancel their licence i believe there should also be a notice on their licencing page that says that by taking out a new licence it will auto cancel anybody else who currently holds a licence for said boat... That way at least people would then know what was potentially happening. I could understand it if the 'boat' had the account with them but as its the owner who has the account then it shouldnt happen. Its like being able to cancel someone's insurance without their knowledge and that could be potentially disastrous.

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I've had experiences like this for the past thirty years.  I'm afraid CaRT, and BW before them, are not very good at dealing with anything slightly out of the ordinary.  The usual response is along the lines of "the computer says, no."  

You need to keep cool and ask to speak to the head of licensing.  The higher up the corporate ladder you manage to reach, the more reasonable the discussion becomes.  The problem is that the personnel and the management structure seems to change so often that it's often difficult to locate the correct person from one year to the next.

Persistence and politeness is the rule.

(Having said that I once  did have to take a complaint to what BW called a level two adjudication. The board member who dealt with my complaint was charming and reasonable and found in my favour - a long story).

Edited by koukouvagia
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26 minutes ago, AllanC said:

So hypothetically, if I bought a boat on the 22nd of the month, could I wait until the 1st of the following month to apply for the licence so that I got the full 12mths and the discount.

basically -YES.

I have just typed out about 1000 words explaining it all, what to do, when to do it and what licences to buy - and its just 'vanished'

So you'll just have to take yes as the answer.

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1 hour ago, AllanC said:

So hypothetically, if I bought a boat on the 22nd of the month, could I wait until the 1st of the following month to apply for the licence so that I got the full 12mths and the discount.

To do that presumably requires the boat not to be on CRT waters between the 22nd and the 1st, or that you do on execute the transfer of ownership until then.  If the seller notifies CRT that they have sold the boat on the 22nd, then wouldn't it become unlicenced at that point.

Edited by john6767
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2 hours ago, john6767 said:

To do that presumably requires the boat not to be on CRT waters between the 22nd and the 1st, or that you do on execute the transfer of ownership until then.  If the seller notifies CRT that they have sold the boat on the 22nd, then wouldn't it become unlicenced at that point.

And then C&RT (by law) have to give you notice to 'remedy' the fact within 28 days before they can take action.

You buy your licence to start on the 1st of the month (8 or 9 days hence) and everyone is happy.

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13 hours ago, john6767 said:

To do that presumably requires the boat not to be on CRT waters between the 22nd and the 1st, or that you do on execute the transfer of ownership until then.  If the seller notifies CRT that they have sold the boat on the 22nd, then wouldn't it become unlicenced at that point.

The previous owner will only get a refund from the 1st so CRT have been paid for this period.

Neil

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4 minutes ago, Neil Smith said:

The previous owner will only get a refund from the 1st so CRT have been paid for this period.

Neil

That is correct, the same as it works with a car, but is still does not mean the that the boat (or car) is licenced during that period.

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