Unlicenced boats!

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

those 3 bits of paper don't magically stop boats going boom

This is very very true. The majority of car owners have their cars fully compliant with all the legislation in place adhered to then each and every day quite a hellish number of them get pissed and kill people with their cars. Sometimes whilst smoking a cigarette they have taken out of a packet that tells them it will kill them. I cant breath underwater and have at least six lifejackets on board and barely ever use one, only on a river!! how stupid is that.

[Kieron G]

I'm visiting CRT waters later this week from the EA river where i'm moored. I've got an explorer license where I get 30 days non consecutive to use. I don't get anything to display as in previous years. I'm thinking that i'll write this years license id number on the boat in permanent maker so I can wipe it off with thinners when I renew and get a new number. Have been reported and checked myself in the past. I think that there are a lot of boaters who aren't aware of the explorer and temporary licences that are available for boats that are moored on non CRT waters and trailer stored.

[Boaty Jo]

13 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

those 3 bits of paper don't magically stop boats going boom

True, any boat can go boom, but anyone with a BSC is made aware of potential dangers merely by going through the process while getting their boat in (at least) rudimentary order.

[john6767]

42 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

They seem to be doing so again now.

However there was definitely a period not long back where they stopped doing so, and required you to print your own.  Their response to those who would/could not was then that they would send you one by post if you contacted them and requested it.

There was also a period where you were supposed to print your own, where when you clicked the link to do soit gave a "404 Page not found".

At one point prior to that some people in CRT were actively telling people that display of paper licences was no longer required, to the extent that quite a lot of people contacted them, and it was confirmed it was not.  That story got quickly reversed, though.

I would argue that it is exactly these kinds of mixed messages by CRT, (effectively two complete U turns on previous decisions) that causes much of the confusion.

On at least one recent renewal on one boat, I printed licences because it said I should, and subsequently got not one but two additional sets by post.  I no longer assume anything on this point!

Not for everyone.  I have recently renewed our licence on line, and have printed the licence off from the pdf.  I have had no postal communication with CRT for a good number of years now, which is presumed was the objective.  So are you saying that itfyou logon to your licencing account you can not access the licence pdf and print it?

So from my perspective nothing has said that I am not expected to print my licence and display it,  in fact the pdf I get says I must display it, so that is what I have done.  I know some people have said that this is not the case for them and they don't need to display the licence, so could there be different information going to different people as a trial perhaps?

[Boaty Jo]

11 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

This is very very true. The majority of car owners have their cars fully compliant with all the legislation in place adhered to then each and every day quite a hellish number of them get pissed and kill people with their cars. Sometimes whilst smoking a cigarette they have taken out of a packet that tells them it will kill them. I cant breath underwater and have at least six lifejackets on board and barely ever use one, only on a river!! how stupid is that.

True, you can't account for the stupidity of someone drowning while lighting a cigarette under water while not wearing a life jacket (spurious), but you can perhaps stop your boat going boom when you light up inside because you have neglected to maintain your gas installation.

[MtB]

My guess would be a boat with a BSC is less likely to go 'boom' than one without. 

I remember my father-in-law telling me about when mandatory MoT tests for cars first started. A colleague of his at work was highly miffed at being made to remove the living room sofa from his car he liked to sit in whilst driving and replace it with securely fixed car seats. 

The BSC may not be prefect but having an inspection in the fist place probably peels out  most of the really bad cases.

[alan_fincher]

22 minutes ago, john6767 said:

So are you saying that itfyou logon to your licencing account you can not access the licence pdf and print it?

No, I am saying that at one point after they first introduced the system, once you had paid, it said something like "click on this link to print it", and that gave you a broken link. 

CRT acknowledged as a bug, but how you release something like that live without testing rather beggars belief.  It was fixed soon after, I think.

I have not knowingly ticked any boxes that say I wanr them to post a licence, (actually the receipt/invoice as well, of course, as both are on a single sheet).  They have now started turning up again even after I have printed my own.

No idea why people not only seem to be treated differently, but even for the same person things are different at each renewal.

Of course I have two boats so do more renewals than most people, and I guess am 100% more likely to catch one of the points at which the system doesn't work 100% sensibly when they are tinkering with things.

[alan_fincher]

29 minutes ago, john6767 said:

So from my perspective nothing has said that I am not expected to print my licence and display it,  in fact the pdf I get says I must display it, so that is what I have done.  I know some people have said that this is not the case for them and they don't need to display the licence, so could there be different information going to different people as a trial perhaps?

There was a period a few years back where CRT licensing staff were telling people thete was no longer a requirement to display.

Several people then rang asking to speak to a supervisor to check, and were told the same.  This resulted in it getting posted here and elsewhere as "good" information.

However others in CRT then said it had been a mistake, and they had not yet dropped the requirement, but were still considering doing so.

(I personally sat in meetings with CRT where different staff contradicted each other on this point, so I know it is true!)

Of course that then brings us back to whether they legally can make that decision when the requirement to display is written into the by-laws.

[MtB]

On 23/07/2017 at 10:54, alan_fincher said:

 

Of course that then brings us back to whether they legally can make that decision when the requirement to display is written into the by-laws.

 

They can however, it appears, make the unilateral decision not to enforce the bye-law.

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for not displaying the 'discs' on their correctly licenced boat?

[Tuscan]

33 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

There was a period a few years back where CRT licensing staff were telling people thete was no longer a requirement to display.

Several people then rang asking to speak to a supervisor to check, and were told the same.  This resulted in it getting posted here and elsewhere as "good" information.

However others in CRT then said it had been a mistake, and they had not yet dropped the requirement, but were still considering doing so.

(I personally sat in meetings with CRT where different staff contradicted each other on this point, so I know it is true!)

Of course that then brings us back to whether they legally can make that decision when the requirement to display is written into the by-laws.

I was also told that they intended to do away with the requirement to display (citing car tax as an example) by senior CRT staff at a meeting and then they subsequently realised that they couldn't change the bylaw. However all the license checking is done by recording index numbers so if you are not displaying a license this is no inconvenience to CRT although an over zealous volunteer (not a license checker)  did once knock on my boat and complain he could not see my license. 

[alan_fincher]

23 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

They can however, it appears, make the unilateral decision not to enforce the bye-law.

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for not displaying the 'discs' on their correctly licenced boat?

I would be prepared to bet, assuming that was the only thing the owner was in breach of, is that no such prosecution has ever occurred.

[MtB]

On 23/07/2017 at 11:33, alan_fincher said:

I would be prepared to bet, assuming that was the only thing the owner was in breach of, is that no such prosecution has ever occurred.

 

Yet a significant proportion of boats are committing this offence of not displaying, as the OP illustrates and we can see for ourselves if we look.

CRT appear to have taken the decision not to enforce displaying a licence disc. Therefore, the argument runs, CRT do not require boaters to display it. 

 

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

On at least one recent renewal on one boat, I printed licences because it said I should, and subsequently got not one but two additional sets by post.  I no longer assume anything on this point!

Same here

17 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yet a significant proportion of boats are committing this offence of not displaying, as the OP illustrates and we can see for ourselves if we look.

CRT appear to have taken the decision not to enforce displaying a licence disc. Therefore, the argument runs, CRT do not require boaters to display it. 

 

Just because no one sets up a speed trap in a small village that has a 30 MPH speed limit through and nicks people. doesn't mean you are allowed to travel at more than 30 MPH  through the village.

[Muddy Ditch Rich]

CaRT have never enforced any bylaws, by their legal departments own reply to a FOI request.

[Jerra]

6 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I would argue that it is exactly these kinds of mixed messages by CRT, (effectively two complete U turns on previous decisions) that causes much of the confusion.

I suspect it was a case of "we no longer need to see licences because of new technology stop issuing them and stop displaying them".  "Whoops the law says they should be displayed we will save money by asking those who can to print their own".  

To a certain extent I think the mixed messages are owing to boaters actions.  Many analyse everything CRT does and yelp "they can't do that the law says ........"  Then CRT does something to make life easier for everybody and somebody points out the law requires ........ so a U turn.

[mrsmelly]

4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

They can however, it appears, make the unilateral decision not to enforce the bye-law.

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for not displaying the 'discs' on their correctly licenced boat?

As we all know it takes but a few seconds to check wether a car has a valid VEL and MOT and in the case of a car even its MOT history and what it has failed on over the years but is there a website nosey sods can click on to check boat details re licensing BSS etc?

4 minutes ago, Jerra said:

I suspect it was a case of "we no longer need to see licences because of new technology stop issuing them and stop displaying them".  "Whoops the law says they should be displayed we will save money by asking those who can to print their own".  

To a certain extent I think the mixed messages are owing to boaters actions.  Many analyse everything CRT does and yelp "they can't do that the law says ........"  Then CRT does something to make life easier for everybody and somebody points out the law requires ........ so a U turn.

Nowt has ever changed for me, I pay every year and every year withouit fail licences come through the post very quickly.

[Arthur Marshall]

7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT  DO send you a licence and, on a couple of occasions have sent me them twice (so I have 'spares')

(I agree with you that having paid them several £100 they should 'pay the £1' to post you it)

They don't seem to send licences as they used to, which were separate tear-off printed things. What I get now is just a confirmation letter of the fee paid with the licenses part of the laser printing. 

[Bod]

6 hours ago, Boaty Jo said:

Just a few idle thoughts.

The vast majority of boats have a licence. A licensed boat will have an up-to-date BSC and valid insurance, both of which are important. Gas, electric and stoves are potentially a lethal mixture so I'd have thought that boaters have (at least) a moral obligation to protect others even if their own safety is unimportant. Of course it doesn't mean that an unlicensed boat will not be insured or have a BSC, but it's possible.

Seems to me the whole system is flawed through a lack of clarity and lack of effective policing. It's probably exacerbated both by a raft of new boaters ignorant of their boats and obligations and those wilfully flouting the regulations.

On the continent, where narrowboats mix with cruisers, barges, yachts and multi-thousand tonne commercials, there are control locks where you must produce up-to-date papers before they allow you to pass, plus regular visits from the waterways police. We were boarded by three different authorities over one winter in Belgium, the local municipal police, the regional police and the customs and excise police, at least two officers in each case (and all who carry firearms). Our fire extinguishers were out of date when we were stopped in France (stupidly). We were given 28 days to rectify it or be fined 1,600 euros (I think from memory). I even know of one boat who borrowed in-date fire extinguishers when they knew they were to be checked and handed them back subsequently, which is really, really stupid.

The vast majority of boaters are conscientious but accidents can happen, even to the most careful and prudent. But perhaps we're just a heartbeat away from an unlicensed, uninsured boat without a BSC blowing up and killing a group of kids.

Live and let live becomes live and let die.

Would the insurance be valid, for an unlicensed boat?  (Much the same question for unBSCed boats?)

It often isn't for cars, insurance companies won't pay out when they don't have to.

 

Bod

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, Bod said:

Would the insurance be valid, for an unlicensed boat?  (Much the same question for unBSCed boats?)

It often isn't for cars, insurance companies won't pay out when they don't have to.

 

Bod

You have to have insurance to be able to get licenced - therefore you must be able to have (valid) insurance whilst being un-licenced.

The insurance will say (something like) you must maintain the boat in a 'sea-worthy' condition - if you do not then the insurance is null & void.

One of my boats has neither a BSSC or a 'licence' and yet is fully insured for £5 million third party and full agreed value 'fully-comprehensive'

 

Edit to add extract from policy :

General Conditions: 
• You will maintain and keep “Sea Wolf”, her machinery, sails boats and equipment in a proper state of repair and seaworthiness and shall at all times exercise due care and diligence in safeguarding them.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[lulu fish]

43 minutes ago, Bod said:

Would the insurance be valid, for an unlicensed boat? 

Is it possible to insure a boat that isn't on CRT waters?

[Pie Eater]

9 minutes ago, lulu fish said:

Is it possible to insure a boat that isn't on CRT waters?

Yes, mine is on the Bridgewater Canal which is owned by the Bridgewater Canal Company.

[Alan de Enfield]

19 minutes ago, lulu fish said:

Is it possible to insure a boat that isn't on CRT waters?

Ask the 200,000+ boaters that are not on C&RTs waterways.

And - many of them don't even have a (shock horror) a BSSC OR a licence !!!

[lulu fish]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Ask the 200,000+ boaters that are not on C&RTs waterways.

And - many of them don't even have a (shock horror) a BSSC OR a licence !!!

Yes, that was my point...

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, lulu fish said:

Yes, that was my point...

Apologies - having seen the question mark I (falsely) assumed you were asking a question.

One normally asks a question because they do not know the answer.

39 minutes ago, lulu fish said:

Is it possible to insure a boat that isn't on CRT waters?

 

[Athy]

15 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

One normally asks a question because they do not know the answer.

 

Not necessarily -there is such a thing as a rhetorical question, which I think is what Miss Fish asked.