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Mac of Cygnet

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My view.

Someone who opens a paddle in a lock without first checking with the person in control of the boat should be removed from working locks forever, banned, end of.   It's a simple rule that even as newbies we perfected. Anything could happen. 

 

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17 hours ago, JamesWoolcock said:

Always lots at Atherstone Top. That's where the teapot is!

But these days they are generally a good helpful, competent bunch of folks given up their time to help us.

And good company too if they follow you through the flight (or some of it!).

James

Informally you may be correct but, as I understand it, actually where the loo is. So they told us. Regulations and all that.

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1 minute ago, DeanS said:

My view.

Someone who opens a paddle in a lock without first checking with the person in control of the boat should be removed from working locks forever, banned, end of.   It's a simple rule that even as newbies we perfected. Anything could happen. 

 

Right on Bro.! Cilling is too good for them!!

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7 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Absolutely. I will be delighted!

But seriously, it is not my intention to upset you, although I realise that may be an unfortunate side effect of my forthrightness! My point is that it is not normal practice to open top paddles slowly on most Midlands canal locks. I can understand it perhaps on some T&M locks which have a very strong forward pull. I can understand it on large river locks such as the OP is talking about. But there is no justification or need on many locks round our way, the entire BCN, the B&F, and definitely the Coventry. Our nearest flight is Glascote which are incredibly slow filling. Nevertheless we are increasingly seeing the "one click at a time"brigade opening the paddles barely at all to start with. That there is not a ripple in the lock, the boat doesn't move and inch nor rise perceptibly, doesn't make them realise that perhaps opening the paddles more would be a good idea. They just do what they always do without regard for the appropriateness.

i don't want the "normal practice" on this forum to be that paddles must be opened slowly regardless. You say you showed the volovkie how to do it properly, but in fact you were showing him how to do it improperly.

I am not especially vexed by those who are cautious - rather that than having to witness an accident. What does vex me are those who think that you have to do the same when descending, even to using only one paddle at first.

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

This crops up regularly. The boat goes into a lock, the gates close. What exactly are you expecting to happen next?

The person winding the paddle should of course look first, to make sure that the steerer is paying attention, not fallen off the back, not looking puzzles at the engine panel of a stalled engine etc. But really, is there a need to send a first class signed letter to the steerer begging to be allowed to open the paddle?

I find that folk fall into 2 categories, those people who like to make it clear that "I'm the Captain, I'm in charge, don't do anything without my express permission" aka control freaks, and the other category who expect the lock to be operated as it is always operated, without intervention unless the steerer has an abnormal situation when he should be able to express that to an observant crew.

This is a big factor in why folk are becoming increasingly reluctant to help others at locks. If you don't beg for and receive permission to help category 1, you get a bollocking. If you beg to be able to help category 2, you get a look of "of course I'm ready, just get on with it, it's not rocket science!" I'm in the latter category, obviously!

But going back to the event under discussion, as described the issue was not that the paddles were opened "without permission" but that they were opened fully. I guess the signed first class letter failed to mention the number of clicks permitted!

Why is it then that your boat bangs into lock gates and ours doesn't, when we always open the paddles fully straight away?

i would agree that the volockie should make eye contact or at least be looking, but that wasn't your original point.

Straw man argument

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8 hours ago, nicknorman said:

As I said, you need some coaching in how to operate your boat.

Put it like this: we always open both top paddles fully and the boat never lurches or bashes into the gate. Why is that?

 

Because your boat is longer/shorter than midnight's boat.

Boats of different lengths behave differently in the same lock, as any fule kno... :P

 

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28 minutes ago, DeanS said:

My view.

Someone who opens a paddle in a lock without first checking with the person in control of the boat should be removed from working locks forever, banned, end of.   It's a simple rule that even as newbies we perfected. Anything could happen. 

 

Why put your boat in a lock and close the gates if you are not expecting the paddles to be opened? Were you intending to stop for lunch or something?

I think far too much emphasis is placed on getting "permission" to do a perfectly routine and expected action. This in itself carries no safety benefit since any problems arising are likely to do so AFTER the paddle has been opened. So what is actually important is that the people manning the paddles are paying attention and will react if anything goes wrong or especially to a signal from the bloke on the boat, eg shouting, horn beeping etc. Whether or not there was previous "permission" to open the paddle is not relevant to the safety case, provided as I mentioned earlier, the paddle operators have a look to see that the steerer hasn't fallen off the boat, not in the middle of a heart attack or otherwise looking perplexed. It is simply an entirely pointless thing to do which is why we never do it.

Ive no idea how many thousands of locks we have done sucessfully. I can only recall one or two times when I've had to shout for paddles to be closed. So think how many pointless "permissions" have been saved by the policy that it's OK to carry out the expected action ie open the paddles, unless otherwise indicated.

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Because your boat is longer/shorter than midnight's boat.

Boats of different lengths behave differently in the same lock, as any fule kno... :P

 

True but not relevant. Actually I think it is because we retain control of our boat whereas he lets his bob about on its own.

Edited by nicknorman
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I will sometimes steer in to a lock and whilst the gates are being closed nip inside for the toilet or to get a drink. I certainly wouldn't expect to return to find paddles had been lifted. Also I tend to dislike revving the engine hard in reverse in a lock so if I stay on the boat I keep it at the back of the lock and expect the paddles to be lifted steadily to around half way to ensure the boat doesn't bounce off the gate and then surge forward requiring reverse. On most of the BCN, especially with single gates, paddles can be lifted straight up, the T&M it is certainly half way and one at a time.

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7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

True but not relevant. Actually I think it is because we retain control of our boat whereas he lets his bob about on its own.

 

Disagree. My two boats are 45ft and 68ft. They behave completely differently in the same lock.

One might surge and the other not.

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1 minute ago, Rob-M said:

I will sometimes steer in to a lock and whilst the gates are being closed nip inside for the toilet or to get a drink. I certainly wouldn't expect to return to find paddles had been lifted. Also I tend to dislike revving the engine hard in reverse in a lock so if I stay on the boat I keep it at the back of the lock and expect the paddles to be lifted steadily to around half way to ensure the boat doesn't bounce off the gate and then surge forward requiring reverse. On most of the BCN, especially with single gates, paddles can be lifted straight up, the T&M it is certainly half way and one at a time.

I agree, there is no question that the paddle operators should check for the presence of a steerer before lifting paddles. But that is not the point in question.

We too tend to stay near the back, sufficiently far in front of the bottom gate so the boat doesn't quite reach it in the backward surge. For T&M locks you do have to keep the boat right at the back or else lots of reverse can be required, but on the Atherstone flight barely above tickover reverse is required with both paddles fully raised.

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One thing you can rely on in canal life is the response on this forum if one raises the subject of Canal Volunteers, particularly it seems at Hillmorton on the Oxford Canal.  

Here we have the usual suspects recounting their terrible experiences when encountering such folk. The stories range from banging on about an incident that is two years old when a boater hung his craft up in a lock and unsuccessfully blamed a Volunteer Lock Keeper, to another who couldn’t think of one so made up a great story (well the writer does claim to be a journalist) about a Volunteer Lock Keeper coming back to the lock in the dark, laying in wait for her, and running out to check she had wound the paddle all the way down.  

Is there a word for a “fear of being associated with, or being erroneously perceived to show a need for help from, a volunteer”. 

Perhaps we should make one up?

 

I was at Hillmorton Locks today and saw two truly extraordinary events (which is what I actually came on the Forum to report).

 

1.     A narrowboat left Bottom Lock and the Volunteer held open the gate and waved to the approaching very attractive wooden cruiser to indicate they could come straight in.  There was no other boat in sight but to the amazement of onlookers, the cruiser captain declined the offer, shouting that they need no help and steered toward the duplicate lock which was half empty.  As the resigned volunteer dutifully stayed well away, we all watched as the cruisers crew proceeded to waste precious water by winding up the paddles and when full, opening the gate to let her master into the lock.

 

2.     The mighty Canal&River Trust contractors used the full force of all their equipment to utterly destroy the orchids on the Lock Island just as they were coming to their best.  This was despite the posts, tape and warning sign that Hillmorton Volunteer Lock Keepers had erected to protect these pretty plants.

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3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Disagree. My two boats are 45ft and 68ft. They behave completely differently in the same lock.

One might surge and the other not.

I'm sure they behave differently when left to their own devices, after all a 72' boat is unlikely to go very far! The point is that there is no reason to let them behave "very differently" - unless you insist on getting off the boat when volockies are helping. Why you would do that, I don't know, since every getting on and off the boat up a ladder etc is a potential safety hazard, far greater than anything a volocky can throw at me.

Chris' first narrowboat (that we used to borrow in the 70s) was 45'. We always used to open top paddles fully straight away, as everyone did in those days. There was no significant difference when he got his next boat (57') nor our boat (59').

3 minutes ago, canalboat said:

One thing you can rely on in canal life is the response on this forum if one raises the subject of Canal Volunteers, particularly it seems at Hillmorton on the Oxford Canal.  

Here we have the usual suspects recounting their terrible experiences when encountering such folk. The stories range from banging on about an incident that is two years old when a boater hung his craft up in a lock and unsuccessfully blamed a Volunteer Lock Keeper, to another who couldn’t think of one so made up a great story (well the writer does claim to be a journalist) about a Volunteer Lock Keeper coming back to the lock in the dark, laying in wait for her, and running out to check she had wound the paddle all the way down.  

Is there a word for a “fear of being associated with, or being erroneously perceived to show a need for help from, a volunteer”. 

Perhaps we should make one up?

 

I was at Hillmorton Locks today and saw two truly extraordinary events (which is what I actually came on the Forum to report).

 

1.     A narrowboat left Bottom Lock and the Volunteer held open the gate and waved to the approaching very attractive wooden cruiser to indicate they could come straight in.  There was no other boat in sight but to the amazement of onlookers, the cruiser captain declined the offer, shouting that they need no help and steered toward the duplicate lock which was half empty.  As the resigned volunteer dutifully stayed well away, we all watched as the cruisers crew proceeded to waste precious water by winding up the paddles and when full, opening the gate to let her master into the lock.

 

2.     The mighty Canal&River Trust contractors used the full force of all their equipment to utterly destroy the orchids on the Lock Island just as they were coming to their best.  This was despite the posts, tape and warning sign that Hillmorton Volunteer Lock Keepers had erected to protect these pretty plants.

Your case is weakened by over-egging. Not that I would ever do that of course!

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15 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Why put your boat in a lock and close the gates if you are not expecting the paddles to be opened? Were you intending to stop for lunch or something?

I think far too much emphasis is placed on getting "permission" to do a perfectly routine and expected action. This in itself carries no safety benefit since any problems arising are likely to do so AFTER the paddle has been opened. So what is actually important is that the people manning the paddles are paying attention and will react if anything goes wrong or especially to a signal from the bloke on the boat, eg shouting, horn beeping etc. Whether or not there was previous "permission" to open the paddle is not relevant to the safety case, provided as I mentioned earlier, the paddle operators have a look to see that the steerer hasn't fallen off the boat, not in the middle of a heart attack or otherwise looking perplexed. It is simply an entirely pointless thing to do which is why we never do it.

Ive no idea how many thousands of locks we have done sucessfully. I can only recall one or two times when I've had to shout for paddles to be closed. So think how many pointless "permissions" have been saved by the policy that it's OK to carry out the expected action ie open the paddles, unless otherwise indicated.

True but not relevant. Actually I think it is because we retain control of our boat whereas he lets his bob about on its own.

Too generalistic reply Nick. You are talking one boat in a narrow lock by the sounds of things and even then I completely disagree with you it takes but a second for the lock operator to get a thumbs up from the steerer to ensure he is ready with engine etc when paddles lift. As for wide locks then there are often 2 or more boats to ensure are ready. At Holme lock when I skippered the Nottingham Princess the full time lockies always asked us if we were ready to go up/down there are many occasions for instance at that and other locks when the lockie simply cannot see 3 or 4 boats at the far side of the lock from his cabin this is the same for many locks around the system such as the 200 foot plus length ones at place s like ferrybridge. Its common sense and common courtesy to ensure skipper/steerer is ready.

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1 minute ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

They'll all behave the same if you put them against the top gate as everyone used to.......The person on the top paddles waits for the stempost to touch the cill and up they go.

 

And if one is single handing?

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In general my experience with volockies has been more negative than positive.  They are probably useful for newbies and hire boaters but they often take a one size fits all approach and I take a pretty dim view of being ordered around at locks, as I have been a few times. 

However, in the past I've highlighted the difference between volockies and proper employed lock keepers (on rivers for example).  But it seems like the line between the two has been blurred.  The volockies don't seem to be wearing anything that identifies them as volunteers rather than staff and as you travel from the T&M onto the Trent it's unclear whether you're dealing with professionals or volunteers.  I'd always assumed that the tidal lock keepers were all employed, but now I'm not so sure.  Certainly my experience earlier this year was that some didn't seem to know what they were doing and were reluctant to give advice, they also could not be relied upon to be on duty at the times published.  Having said that, one of the lockies at Torksey was definitely not a volunteer and he was an absolute tool.

 

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I used to do it but couldn't afford all the new fenders!

My boat needs new fenders................paint........ropes..................:(

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I used to do it but couldn't afford all the new fenders!

Mine is older than I am - a heavy synthetic fibre rope core, and it gets recovered very 7-8 years when the outer rots/wears out. It would last longer with a tire over it.

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2 minutes ago, Rose Narrowboats said:

Mine is older than I am - a heavy synthetic fibre rope core, and it gets recovered very 7-8 years when the outer rots/wears out. It would last longer with a tire over it.

 

How much would you charge to make me one like that? Complete with tyre.

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