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Mac of Cygnet

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17 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I wish to provoke you because I want you to think about what you are doing. Partly for selfish reasons because I resent being stuck behind folk who seem to make a virtue out of doing everything as slowly as possible, but also for your own sake so that you day is not spoilt when someone carries out a perfectly normal action such as fully opening both top paddles on a Coventry canal lock.

 

Edited by Midnight
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11 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I met a stack of vlockies last year, and every one of them asked me (I'm on my own) if I wanted their help and when I said yes, all checked with me if it was Ok to open each paddle.  I thought training must have improved.

I met many this year on my marathon trip to Oxford. Most were very friendly and helpful it's just the odd one here and there who seem to believe it's their way or no way.

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4 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Hopefully we may meet one day to test your theory.

Absolutely. I will be delighted!

But seriously, it is not my intention to upset you, although I realise that may be an unfortunate side effect of my forthrightness! My point is that it is not normal practice to open top paddles slowly on most Midlands canal locks. I can understand it perhaps on some T&M locks which have a very strong forward pull. I can understand it on large river locks such as the OP is talking about. But there is no justification or need on many locks round our way, the entire BCN, the B&F, and definitely the Coventry. Our nearest flight is Glascote which are incredibly slow filling. Nevertheless we are increasingly seeing the "one click at a time"brigade opening the paddles barely at all to start with. That there is not a ripple in the lock, the boat doesn't move and inch nor rise perceptibly, doesn't make them realise that perhaps opening the paddles more would be a good idea. They just do what they always do without regard for the appropriateness.

i don't want the "normal practice" on this forum to be that paddles must be opened slowly regardless. You say you showed the volovkie how to do it properly, but in fact you were showing him how to do it improperly.

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1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Absolutely. I will be delighted!

But seriously, it is not my intention to upset you, although I realise that may be an unfortunate side effect of my forthrightness! My point is that it is not normal practice to open top paddles slowly on most Midlands canal locks. I can understand it perhaps on some T&M locks which have a very strong forward pull. I can understand it on large river locks such as the OP is talking about. But there is no justification or need on many locks round our way, the entire BCN, the B&F, and definitely the Coventry. Our nearest flight is Glascote which are incredibly slow filling. Nevertheless we are increasingly seeing the "one click at a time"brigade opening the paddles barely at all to start with. That there is not a ripple in the lock, the boat doesn't move and inch nor rise perceptibly, doesn't make them realise that perhaps opening the paddles more would be a good idea. They just do what they always do without regard for the appropriateness.

i don't want the "normal practice" on this forum to be that paddles must be opened slowly regardless. You say you showed the volovkie how to do it properly, but in fact you were showing him how to do it improperly.

Where did I say that? My offer to show him was pure sarcasm 
If you knew me I don't think you would expect I would hold you up. My boat is currently in your area but regrettably my son will be bringing it back oop norf. Then I will be single handing down Marple and over the Huddersfield back to base on the Calder Navigation. I doubt I'll be holding anyone up.

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6 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Where did I say that? My offer to show him was pure sarcasm 
If you knew me I don't think you would expect I would hold you up. My boat is currently in your area but regrettably my son will be bringing it back oop norf. Then I will be single handing down Marple and over the Huddersfield back to base on the Calder Navigation. I doubt I'll be holding anyone up.

Sorry, missed out "offered to" but that doesn't change the point. I'm not familiar with Calder navigation locks, perhaps they are fierce fillers? But when in Rome...

The point is that you took exception to something that is normal practice for the majority (if an unfortunately decreasing majority) of boaters. This spoilt your day (a bit), maybe spoilt the volockies day, and all for no valid reason.

Edited by nicknorman
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5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Sorry, missed out "offered to" but that doesn't change the point. I'm not familiar with Calder navigation locks, perhaps they are fierce fillers? But when in Rome...

The point is that you took exception to something that is normal practice for the majority (if an unfortunately decreasing majority) of boaters. This spoilt your day (a bit), maybe spoilt the volockies day, and all for no valid reason.

Not really, the Lock Keeper shouldn't be doing anything without making sure the boater is okay with it first, even if only to make sure the boater is paying attention

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5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Sorry, missed out "offered to" but that doesn't change the point. I'm not familiar with Calder navigation locks, perhaps they are fierce fillers? But when in Rome...

The point is that you took exception to something that is normal practice for the majority (if an unfortunately decreasing majority) of boaters. This spoilt your day (a bit), maybe spoilt the volockies day, and all for no valid reason.

The point I was making in answer to Mac's OP is that there are a small number of volockies who just do their thing regardless of what the steerer wants or asks for - in this case without even eye contact. The boat did surge back then bang the gate - if that's normal practice then I don't need help like that as I'm quite capable of bringing the boat up in any lock without it lurching about - oh and without holding anyone up.

On the recent trip to Oxford and after ascending Napton flight, the crew on the following boat offered to buy me a drink for lifting the bottom paddles and opening the gates of each lock I left so they could keep up. Now you're going to tell me that I need coaching on why I shouldn't help those following behind.

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15 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Not really, the Lock Keeper shouldn't be doing anything without making sure the boater is okay with it first, even if only to make sure the boater is paying attention

This crops up regularly. The boat goes into a lock, the gates close. What exactly are you expecting to happen next?

The person winding the paddle should of course look first, to make sure that the steerer is paying attention, not fallen off the back, not looking puzzles at the engine panel of a stalled engine etc. But really, is there a need to send a first class signed letter to the steerer begging to be allowed to open the paddle?

I find that folk fall into 2 categories, those people who like to make it clear that "I'm the Captain, I'm in charge, don't do anything without my express permission" aka control freaks, and the other category who expect the lock to be operated as it is always operated, without intervention unless the steerer has an abnormal situation when he should be able to express that to an observant crew.

This is a big factor in why folk are becoming increasingly reluctant to help others at locks. If you don't beg for and receive permission to help category 1, you get a bollocking. If you beg to be able to help category 2, you get a look of "of course I'm ready, just get on with it, it's not rocket science!" I'm in the latter category, obviously!

But going back to the event under discussion, as described the issue was not that the paddles were opened "without permission" but that they were opened fully. I guess the signed first class letter failed to mention the number of clicks permitted!

5 minutes ago, Midnight said:

The point I was making in answer to Mac's OP is that there are a small number of volockies who just do their thing regardless of what the steerer wants or asks for - in this case without even eye contact. The boat did surge back then bang the gate - if that's normal practice then I don't need help like that as I'm quite capable of bringing the boat up in any lock without it lurching about - oh and without holding anyone up.

On the recent trip to Oxford and after ascending Napton flight, the crew on the following boat offered to buy me a drink for lifting the bottom paddles and opening the gates of each lock I left so they could keep up. Now you're going to tell me that I need coaching on why I shouldn't help those following behind.

Why is it then that your boat bangs into lock gates and ours doesn't, when we always open the paddles fully straight away?

i would agree that the volockie should make eye contact or at least be looking, but that wasn't your original point.

Edited by nicknorman
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12 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

i would agree that the volockie should make eye contact or at least be looking

A good place to leave it or else some may think the thread is being hijacked by two idiots.

 

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55 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Absolutely. I will be delighted!

But seriously, it is not my intention to upset you, although I realise that may be an unfortunate side effect of my forthrightness! My point is that it is not normal practice to open top paddles slowly on most Midlands canal locks. I can understand it perhaps on some T&M locks which have a very strong forward pull. I can understand it on large river locks such as the OP is talking about. But there is no justification or need on many locks round our way, the entire BCN, the B&F, and definitely the Coventry. Our nearest flight is Glascote which are incredibly slow filling. Nevertheless we are increasingly seeing the "one click at a time"brigade opening the paddles barely at all to start with. That there is not a ripple in the lock, the boat doesn't move and inch nor rise perceptibly, doesn't make them realise that perhaps opening the paddles more would be a good idea. They just do what they always do without regard for the appropriateness.

i don't want the "normal practice" on this forum to be that paddles must be opened slowly regardless. You say you showed the volovkie how to do it properly, but in fact you were showing him how to do it improperly.

Even worse are the ones who lift the paddles one click at a time when going down.  What's that all about?

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10 minutes ago, Midnight said:

A good place to leave it or else some may think the thread is being hijacked by two idiots.

 

It's three now, you are outnumbered! Interesting how you have no cogent argument to put forward, you can only insult those who are trying to make you see a different viewpoint. I guess you are used to doing everything on your own, your way. 

Edited by nicknorman
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10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It's three now, you are outnumbered! Interesting how you have no cogent argument to put forward, you can only insult those who are trying to make you see a different viewpoint. I guess you are used to doing everything on your own, your way. 

What could be achieved by arguing over such an irrelevant issue? 

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2 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I wish to provoke you because I want you to think about what you are doing. Partly for selfish reasons because I resent being stuck behind folk who seem to make a virtue out of doing everything as slowly as possible, but also for your own sake so that you day is not spoilt when someone carries out a perfectly normal action such as fully opening both top paddles on a Coventry canal lock.

An extra 2 minutes at a lock is nothing, but when its a flight of 18 it it adds up a bit

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52 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

This crops up regularly. The boat goes into a lock, the gates close. What exactly are you expecting to happen next?

The person winding the paddle should of course look first, to make sure that the steerer is paying attention, not fallen off the back, not looking puzzles at the engine panel of a stalled engine etc.

So we're in agreement on that bit then?

 

54 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Why is it then that your boat bangs into lock gates and ours doesn't, when we always open the paddles fully straight away?

i would agree that the volockie should make eye contact or at least be looking, but that wasn't your original point.

There are several reasons, and, to put it bluntly, I don't quite believe you. 

The reasons? I guess your boat is relatively long and more often than not has someone at the controls, amongst other things. Both of these matter, the length because there is less room for the boat to move (Lutine moves a lot more than Ripple used to, and both went through the same locks) and also to get caught by whatever surge does occur, the someone at the controls because it's surprising how often a blip at the throttle will nip that movement in the bud. Also, with a longer boat (especially one with a steel roof) if you are single handing there is more choice of location and still be next to the ladder - there are locks where I can't put Lutine against the top gate (my preferred place) and still be next to the ladder, she's too short.

The not quite believe you because (a) I'll bet the boat still moves sometimes, and (b) you will have your routine which includes watching, and you probably don't realise what your little routine does to affect the lock. The difference between "one paddle up, look down the lock and see it's all okay, cross gate, second paddle up" and "two people, both paddles up straight away" will be quite marked even in the relatively tame locks on the Coventry. 

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49 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have only had a disagreement with two volockies and that was at the same lock at Fradley on separate occasions

 

Easily done I met one of those a few years ago.
I have suggested to my son that when he brings our boat back 'ooop norf' not to let  anyone take over on the first lock he'll come to - Fradley Lock 18 (quite savage IIRC). I offer my humble  apologies in advance should his action cause any hold-ups.

Having said that the vast majority of volunteers are very friendly and helpful. It's just the odd few who make me a bit wary in unknown lands.

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3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

(snip)

Why is it then that your boat bangs into lock gates and ours doesn't, when we always open the paddles fully straight away?

(snip)

Because yours is heavier, with a greater draught?

(And the butler is holding it in place! :cheers:)

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3 hours ago, Midnight said:


I have suggested to my son that when he brings our boat back 'ooop norf' not to let  anyone take over on the first lock he'll come to - Fradley Lock 18 (quite savage IIRC). I offer my humble  apologies in advance should his action cause any hold-ups.

 

The Fradley lock is on the T&M and is thus relatively fierce, although personally we always open both paddles fully without any drama. But I accept that if you get the boat in the wrong place, or have ineffective reverse, it is all too easy to get the forward suction that is hard to stop. But the Coventry locks are an entirely different kettle of fish.

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

Because yours is heavier, with a greater draught?

(And the butler is holding it in place! :cheers:)

The "disturbance" is caused by water moving under the boat. Surely the greater the extent of the boat under the water, the more the moving water is likely to influence it? But anyway, when we used to borrow my mate Chris' boat with was only about 22" draft, we did exactly the same thing with exactly the same outcomes.

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4 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

There are several reasons, and, to put it bluntly, I don't quite believe you. 

The reasons? I guess your boat is relatively long and more often than not has someone at the controls, amongst other things. Both of these matter, the length because there is less room for the boat to move (Lutine moves a lot more than Ripple used to, and both went through the same locks) and also to get caught by whatever surge does occur, the someone at the controls because it's surprising how often a blip at the throttle will nip that movement in the bud. Also, with a longer boat (especially one with a steel roof) if you are single handing there is more choice of location and still be next to the ladder - there are locks where I can't put Lutine against the top gate (my preferred place) and still be next to the ladder, she's too short.

The not quite believe you because (a) I'll bet the boat still moves sometimes, and (b) you will have your routine which includes watching, and you probably don't realise what your little routine does to affect the lock. The difference between "one paddle up, look down the lock and see it's all okay, cross gate, second paddle up" and "two people, both paddles up straight away" will be quite marked even in the relatively tame locks on the Coventry. 

I'm not really sure why on earth you would think I'm lying, but anyway we will be going up Atherstone a week today, you are most welcome to come and watch. Our boat is 59', pretty average. Yes we do have someone on the controls when opening both paddles etc. Why wouldn't you? But I think this might be the nub of the issue. Normally we have a crew of 2, one operates the locks whilst the other steers. Occasionally I single hand. If I am on my own (ie no volockies, no other assistants) then I will probably not open both paddles fully straight away, because it is quicker to do it more slowly than to take the time to secure the boat to a bollard. But if I am on my own and then a volockie etc appears, I will of course resort to the most expeditious way to operate which is to stay on the boat whilst the volockie winds the paddles. My suspiction is that Mr Midnight is so accustomed to locking single-handed that he doesn't have a strategy that deals well with the involvement of others eg volockies. Which is odd since even these days, one frequently encounters help from other boaters etc at locks. Maybe he is one of those who routinely refuses help?

Of course the boat moves, I tend to position it some way in front of the bottom gate so that the surge moves it backwards but not so far as to hit the gate (or if it looks likely, a bit of fwds might be required). The only time it doesn't really move is on those BCN locks with multiple paddle outlets. As to your (b) above, wasn't there only one volocky involved? He would have had to have very long arms to operate both paddles simultaneously. But even if there were two volockies acting simultaneously, on those locks the surge and suction are still very tame

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10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I'm not really sure why on earth you would think I'm lying, but anyway we will be going up Atherstone a week today, you are most welcome to come and watch. Our boat is 59', pretty average. Yes we do have someone on the controls when opening both paddles etc. Why wouldn't you? But I think this might be the nub of the issue. Normally we have a crew of 2, one operates the locks whilst the other steers. Occasionally I single hand. If I am on my own (ie no volockies, no other assistants) then I will probably not open both paddles fully straight away, because it is quicker to do it more slowly than to take the time to secure the boat to a bollard. But if I am on my own and then a volockie etc appears, I will of course resort to the most expeditious way to operate which is to stay on the boat whilst the volockie winds the paddles. My suspiction is that Mr Midnight is so accustomed to locking single-handed that he doesn't have a strategy that deals well with the involvement of others eg volockies. Which is odd since even these days, one frequently encounters help from other boaters etc at locks. Maybe he is one of those who routinely refuses help?

Of course the boat moves, I tend to position it some way in front of the bottom gate so that the surge moves it backwards but not so far as to hit the gate (or if it looks likely, a bit of fwds might be required). The only time it doesn't really move is on those BCN locks with multiple paddle outlets. As to your (b) above, wasn't there only one volocky involved? He would have had to have very long arms to operate both paddles simultaneously. But even if there were two volockies acting simultaneously, on those locks the surge and suction are still very tame

For clarity, I don't think your lying, I just don't think you realise how intuitive your operation of the locks is. The rest of your post suggests that when you think about it you do realise this.

59 foot is 14 foot more than Lutine Bell, that will make a difference. Ripple was 62 foot and stayed put in most locks, Lutine at 45 foot won't.

I would agree that help is nearly always around these days - I hardly ever do all the work on a lock unless I'm boating after 6pm...

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I tend to always start with half a paddle, but you can usually tell fairly soon if the boats moving. As a 40 footer, if if does get pushed back and then forward on the surge it can build up a hell of a lick before it hits the front gate, and has broken  the rope holding it several times. And the fridge. So I'm always careful, sorry. I'm happy to take advice from other boaters who know the area more than me, but it's still my boat that gets damaged, to say nowt of the lock gate. NB I singlehand, so there's never anyone on the boat. 

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3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I tend to always start with half a paddle, but you can usually tell fairly soon if the boats moving. As a 40 footer, if if does get pushed back and then forward on the surge it can build up a hell of a lick before it hits the front gate, and has broken  the rope holding it several times. And the fridge. So I'm always careful, sorry. I'm happy to take advice from other boaters who know the area more than me, but it's still my boat that gets damaged, to say nowt of the lock gate. NB I singlehand, so there's never anyone on the boat. 

But presumably having done the first 10 locks of a flight, you would have the general idea of the behaviour of the 11th? If you have volockies helping, why not stay on the boat? As you would do, for example, on the Trent or Severn?

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22 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But presumably having done the first 10 locks of a flight, you would have the general idea of the behaviour of the 11th? If you have volockies helping, why not stay on the boat? As you would do, for example, on the Trent or Severn?

Yes, but on the T&M the lock surges vary hugely from lock to lock.  Probably in a long flight I would have got the knack after the first couple - I certainly want to get through them as quick as I can, and in my experience as a singlehander, have usually gone faster than crewed boats behind me with less experience.

And yes, if there are vlockies, I stay on the boat and assume they know what they're doing... mostly, so far, they have.

ETA and if someone is obviously going quicker than me, and I want to go slow, I'll wave them on.

Edited by Arthur Marshall
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