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Why a Narrow Boat or GRP


Calranthe

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1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Because it isn't and never will be our thing.

Narrowboats are too restrictive.

They're designed for one single purpose.

For any other use. They are well useless.

Who mentioned the inland narrow system? The UK has far more waters to offer than 600 miles of narrow canals. Thankfully.

I'm not sure where that 'Because...' is coming from. It feels like you're answering some question I didn't ask. Maybe you read 'you' and 'your' in my last post as meaning you personally, and thought I was challenging you to justify yourself? If so, sorry, I meant 'one' and 'one's'. I understand your (perfectly valid) reasons for preferring the style of boat you do.

I was talking about the overall 'system' of UK waterways - what you called to 'the available UK waterways' - and suggesting that while the 600 miles or so of narrow canals do (of course) represent only a 'limited' amount of those waterways, it's by no means such a limited amount as to make it incomprehensible that anyone would want to take it into account when choosing a boat.

I suppose what I'm looking for from you (although at this point I don't think I'm going to get it) is some acknowledgement that other people choosing a boat that gives them access to the narrow canals aren't necessarily idiots - the sort of people who would restrict their living space because of 'a few muddy Midlands ditches' - since actually the narrow canals (again) are vastly more numerous, more widespread and more appealing than that characterisation would suggest.

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Compared to the circa 11k miles of coastline we are lucky to have in the UK, then 600 miles of narrow ditches fades into insignificance. 

If someone chooses to limit their accommodation to suit such a small percentage of waters then yes that is of course their choice. But it does seem a rather odd one for such a small amount of water.

How many of those limiting their accommodation to the go anywhere 57ft narrowboat actually go everywhere that boat can reach?

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17 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Compared to the circa 11k miles of coastline we are lucky to have in the UK, then 600 miles of narrow ditches fades into insignificance. 

If someone chooses to limit their accommodation to suit such a small percentage of waters then yes that is of course their choice. But it does seem a rather odd one for such a small amount of water.

How many of those limiting their accommodation to the go anywhere 57ft narrowboat actually go everywhere that boat can reach?

Why is it an odd choice?

In 2010 we sold our yacht which had the capability of going anywhere in the world and, in 2011, bought our narrow boat. I have sailed offshore since about 1977 or so, most recently sailing our yacht to Malta and back between 2006 and 2009. 

 

Since buying Fevre Dream, (45ft narrow boat), and doing the delivery trip from Barton Turns Marina, at the other end of the Trent and Mersey, to Stretford, on The Bridgewater, the furthest we have been is Moore in one direction, and Dover Lock in the other.

I am happy that the boat is moored a ten minute drive from home, such that I can spend a few nights a week on it, in a leafy tree lined location, with ducks, geese, fish, joggers, cyclists, walkers, and so on.

So, as you say, it is our choice, and definitely not an odd choice.

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1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Compared to the circa 11k miles of coastline we are lucky to have in the UK, then 600 miles of narrow ditches fades into insignificance. 

If someone chooses to limit their accommodation to suit such a small percentage of waters then yes that is of course their choice. But it does seem a rather odd one for such a small amount of water.

I think this has descended to the level of simple trolling now. This is the Canal World discussion forum. Like most people here, I am a lover of canals and canal boating. From that perspective, of course 600 miles of much-loved canals do not appear insignificant, and of course the choice of a boat that's designed to cruise those canals rather than coastal waters does not seem odd. You must be very well aware of that, and I can't think of any reason why you'd be pretending otherwise except that you get some sort of pleasure out of sneering at people and/or trying to wind them up. 

Anyway, Do Not Feed is the usual advice, I think. So I'll leave it there.

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On 15/07/2017 at 16:28, Captain Pegg said:

 Many (probably most) here want to go to Brum rather than to sea.

JP

 

 

No doubt you are correct .

On the choice of boat being influenced by the available budget - there is certainly more than a little  something in that too. 

I could have had a narrowboat or a steel cruiser . I could have had an older but bigger boat. 

My present GRP cruiser choice was about comfortable accommodation and storage  including a proper bedroom not a cramped crawl-in space , the ability to go to sea that significantly exceeded the previous boat , a three burner gas hob , a built in gas oven and heating. It had to be no older than the previous boat. Twin diesel engines.

There had to compromise somewhere - we only have a two burner hob. The bow thruster was a bonus. 

 

I fully support peoples choice if they should buy a boat quite different to mine . Life might be a bit boring if everyone made the same choices .

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Why is it an odd choice?

In 2010 we sold our yacht which had the capability of going anywhere in the world and, in 2011, bought our narrow boat. I have sailed offshore since about 1977 or so, most recently sailing our yacht to Malta and back between 2006 and 2009. 

 

Since buying Fevre Dream, (45ft narrow boat), and doing the delivery trip from Barton Turns Marina, at the other end of the Trent and Mersey, to Stretford, on The Bridgewater, the furthest we have been is Moore in one direction, and Dover Lock in the other.

I am happy that the boat is moored a ten minute drive from home, such that I can spend a few nights a week on it, in a leafy tree lined location, with ducks, geese, fish, joggers, cyclists, walkers, and so on.

So, as you say, it is our choice, and definitely not an odd choice.

Fully agree.

We did our ocean sailing over the years including Norway, Scotland etc but have given up as it is too strenuous trying to reef a 40ft boat in a force 5. We now love our NB and have been so lucky to have tried both. One is not better than the other. Both are completely different experiences.

......and Richard, I guess you were the 'Richard' from Manchester with the Blue and White spinnaker avatar on the YBW forum? We were a year behind you going down to Lagos and I always looked forward to your posts on YBW. I knew you got to Malta but then wondered where you had gone. We were down that way 2008-12.

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This thread has been very entertaining, particularly liked @Dr Bob offering technical knowhow, in depth analysis of GRP construction from a professionals viewpoint only to be told he is wrong because someone owns a GRP boat. Its like a little microcosm of the internet in a handy thread.

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I am a bit late to this topic but found it very interesting to read having owned both type of boat on canals. 

I believe that people overthink GRP boats, they are actually rather strong, very agile and a great tool if that's what you want.

In my time I have owned a 55ft canal boat, a 40ft canal boat a 27ft nauticus grp and a 23/4 ft norman

I would say a 24ft norman would have more space or be used better than a 24ft narrowboat, infact I am currently looking for a 32ft highbridge crusader, because the way they utilize there space is second to none  a genuine 6 berth with all facility's bar a stove / heating. I couldn't see a 32ft narrowboat doing the same. I suppose its no mistake that these boats are late 80's so 30 years old, all this talk of cracking the hulls, damaging the coat etc is relevant but not as much as we make out?

I have found in the past that you often see grp boats lived on and often very overloaded and tatty, by nature the cost of them make them a bit throwaway so if they are unloved or dumped then yes they will in the end find the bottom of the cut, probably a bit quicker than a narrowboat. They do not just sink, often abuse and maintenance is attributed which is probably no more than a narrowboat although you do have to take a little bit more care in making sure as mentioned your gel coat is kept good and so on.

On the subject of bashing into things and damaging your gel coat or sinking your boat i think weight is relevant here, a narrowboat will make a fairly large bang is allowed to drift into the bank or lock entrance etc your moving 15tonne plus most of the time so it has a lot more to stop, i would say a grp boat is obviously a lot lighter so the force behind the bang will be much less and as such is why they can get away with it in most instances. 

We have shared locks with narrowboats before, again a bit of care needed but if you allow both to float you will not see the grp boat sink to the bottom after being crushed and split in two.

In fact all 7 pages of talk on here i have not seen one person say such and such a boat sank when it was crushed by this narrowboat at this lock or anything like that, all if buts and maybes. 

At the end of the day if your careful with your narrowboat as you should be and the owner of a grp boat is careful there is nothing that should happen other than laughing at the grp boat trying to follow a canal boat at very slow speed which is not fun. We found most narrowboat owners pleasant when we had our nauticus but with the norman there was defiantly some snobbery going on i am afraid to say.

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On ‎16‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 21:46, Naughty Cal said:

Why restrict our cruising and accommodation for the off chance we might visit some muddy ditch in the Midlands?

It makes far more sense for us to have a boat suitable for the cruising that we actually do.  Not what we may or may not fancy doing in the future.

and that is the crux of the whole discussion.    If you are more likely to do rivers, estuaries and coastal passages then a fiberglass motorboat makes more sense, however if you are going to spend the majority of the time on canals, then a canal boat makes sense.    Under about 35-40ft you have the choice of fiberglass or steel hull, if you want bigger then steel is pretty much your only choice.  

 

I speak as someone who has boated since a young age on pretty much everything that floats from wooden pram sailing boats, raced J24's, as well as working professionally on pilot boats, pleasure boats and the odd oil tanker.   

 

work out what your requirements are, how the finances are working and then you will get your choice.     Whilst there are Fiberglass narrowboats aroun, my personal choice is something made of steel!     

 

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  • 5 months later...
On 13/07/2017 at 16:29, RichM said:

I liveaboard a narrowboat and I like the fact it's pretty solid and if anyone were to crash into her, I probably won't need to worry about much other than damage to paintwork. Correct me if I am wrong but I doubt the same can be said for a GRP cruiser. I think I would be paranoid especially on a ship canal! 

Well a fairly long narrowboat collided with my cruiser at speed a couple of years ago and other than minor scratches the only real damage was an already weak shelf inside the boat snapping off. They are a lot tougher than many people think and what's more I would say mine is easier to handle in the wind than any fair-sized narrowboat I've tried to steer in strong winds, in fact the handling in general is good (albeit mine is well ballasted at the bow which improves handling).

Can only speak for the Norman 24 model here but the other real asset is the cockpit; aside from the canopy protection there is so much space, comfy seats for both steerer and passengers and it's enclosed to waist height to provide reasonable protection from falling overboard. The wheel steering is also pretty fun (and responsive!) and lighter to work than a tiller is.

It has weaknesses but there's a lot of wrong assumptions, even stereotyping, made against it and I guess most GRP boats.

Edited by Philip
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On 13/07/2017 at 08:29, Athy said:

If you're talking about narrowbeam boats I'd agree with you. But we regularly hire widebeam GRP boats about 30' by 10', and they are quite specious - they probably have more Lebensraum than our 45 foot narrowboat.

Very true, our previous boat that we lived on for 10 years was 40ft x 12ft and we never once felt pushed for space 

Phil 

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All this talk (unfounded ) about GRP  being weak, cold, damp etc ad nausium reminded me that the Royal Navy have a considerable number of GRP boats, minesweepers etc.

I don't believe the RN would entertain GRP if it was as bad as it has been suggested

Phil 

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8 hours ago, Phil Ambrose said:

All this talk (unfounded ) about GRP  being weak, cold, damp etc ad nausium reminded me that the Royal Navy have a considerable number of GRP boats, minesweepers etc.

I don't believe the RN would entertain GRP if it was as bad as it has been suggested

Phil 

There's GRP and GRP. The mine hunters were laid up using woven rovings rather than chopped strand mat and were thick. 70% glass rather than 35%. Not much different than steel. GRP on rivers is wonderful. Steel on canals is wonderful. You don't get solid fuel stoves or washing machines on yoghurt pots. I'd never live on a boat without a stove again. 

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Holland is full of cruisers, only thing is that when you look closely they are nearly all steel, its not the material, its the cruiser v. narrowboat that's the issue. Narrowboats can use narrow canals. Lots of cruisers can't but they can do rivers and slightly salty water, even properly salty water if they are big enough. They do seem to need a devil of a lot of fenders and balloon things flapping about all over the place though.

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I would guess that a large part of the trouble with today's pleasure narrow boat design the dimensions are based on sizes for boats designed for a completely different purpose where estuary/off shore boats have a lot less restrictions on design dimensions  A narrow boat is restricted in beam; draft, air draft so the only thing you can alter is length up to 58/70 ft dependent on where you wish to cruise so builders try to get the maximum bang for your buck size wise the broad canals are better in regard to boat design dimensions but still have restrictions & on the canal system are not able to make use of all the unconnected bits without removal from the water & dropped back in at the next wide section the original boats were wood & this progressed to Iron/Steel which gave good service so GRP was not used for narrow boats much as metal or wood filled the  bill & was a known substance were GRP at that time was untried in regard to  Canal usage & a man with a poly tunnel,steel plate,an arc welder /grinder etc. could build a hull/boat with out the expense of moulds so long as he could weld. I am not putting forward which is best  just that the cottage industry of the canal  found the steel route less hassle Boat builders for offshore are not tied down to hull dimensions too the same degree & space can be found & still keep them "Boat'y Shape " It will for ever be what kind of boating do I wish to pursue & whatever that is the boat will more or less conform to the  best to suit the use

Edited by X Alan W
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7 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

There's GRP and GRP. The mine hunters were laid up using woven rovings rather than chopped strand mat and were thick. 70% glass rather than 35%. Not much different than steel. GRP on rivers is wonderful. Steel on canals is wonderful. You don't get solid fuel stoves or washing machines on yoghurt pots. I'd never live on a boat without a stove again. 

Yes you do get washing machines and solid fuel stoves if you really want them on GRP boats.

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A single incident made us change our minds. We were actively looking for a GRP boat, having had one before, but in the meantime we took a holiday in a steel narrowboat. We were about 50 yds from emerging out the Blisworth Tunnel, when a new hirer came into the tunnel from the opposite direction. We all know the eyes take a little time to adjust when entering a tunnel and to give the other boater benefit of the doubt, we assume that and the fact that he was inexperienced, combined to cause him to hit us a massive blow to the port bow. We were almost not moving at all as I saw him coming. Immediately after, my wife voiced my own thoughts, "if we had been in Topsy, (Our previous boat), he would have sunk us!"

The result was that we had to wait a couple more years before we could afford a steel shell and fitted out our own narrow boat.

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8 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

There's GRP and GRP. The mine hunters were laid up using woven rovings rather than chopped strand mat and were thick. 70% glass rather than 35%. Not much different than steel. GRP on rivers is wonderful. Steel on canals is wonderful. You don't get solid fuel stoves or washing machines on yoghurt pots. I'd never live on a boat without a stove again. 

Dr Bob Sir,many Plastic Boats use Woven Rovings in their Layup, usually  Sandwiched in the Chopped strand Mat as I am sure you know already.

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15 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

Dr Bob Sir,many Plastic Boats use Woven Rovings in their Layup, usually  Sandwiched in the Chopped strand Mat as I am sure you know already.

Well yes of course lots of different lay ups but the mine hunters were special. We used to supply the resin to Vospers (where the hulls were first built) and did all the testing of the laminates on the first on in 1976 I think. Those laminates were serious stuff with as I said previously 70% glass (so only 30% resin). Lesiure boats are very unlikely to have more than 50% glass and 30 years ago would be less than 40%.

44 minutes ago, tony collins said:

"if we had been in Topsy, (Our previous boat), he would have sunk us!"

When we raced our 40' grp yacht, we had the misfortune to broach just  after the start of the race (actually I didnt dump the main quick enough) and turned into the boat on the port side and gave it a whack on the rear quarter with our anchor. He needed £1500 of grp repairs. No damage to us whatsoever. We were only doing 6 knots. Steel vs grp is like rock, paper sissors without the paper.

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1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Yes you do get washing machines and solid fuel stoves if you really want them on GRP boats.

Indeed we have seen a good few GRP boats with solid fuel stoves. I can only think of one with a washing machine, but it is of course perfectly feasible.  
My neighbour lives on a 19ft grp ex-yacht that has a tiny wood burner in it (no washer though!)

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