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Beta 43 - remote diagnosis advice


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I rather suspect that my winter investment with the yard in question will have no comeback, and as the boat is now effectively stuck at Cropredy a local trustworthy solution is needed.

The cost implications of this are, I know, enough to make a man weep. 

On reliability - I always thought the beta 43 was reckoned to be about the most reliable lump out there, and much favoured by anyone not in the vintage market. 

I understand there are fixes, but also that on a beta aged 20 yrs - even a low hours one like this - a new short motor may in fact be where this ends up. 

Perhaps it was a mistake to change the name of the boat. 

Anyway if anyone can recommend a trustworthy engineer around Cropredy I am interested. 

Edited by Tigerr
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Give matt of msv 07940398108 a call. he has just fitted my beta 43 for me.

Over the last 2 years he has been a great help to me.

He unshipped a lister for me and fitted this beta 43. I'm merchant navy and seen it all

I cant fault him and I have 4 others who agree.

There is a slipway 100 yards up from cropredy, where I am, try them for the engine lifting , richard thomas 07790843865.

Then bowhaul the boat back to cropredy to await the repaired engine. Cropredy will 

do the return boat bit for you for a small price probably, they understand these problems.

ken

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Helpful stuff from granddad.

Bear in mind 'Welsh Richard'(as he is known locally) can talk for Wales, so only visit him if you have an hour or two to spare :)  Lovely chap with a lot of interesting stuff to say.

Another suggestion is talk to Beta. They are well aware of this problem and might do a good deal on a short engine, or even have a cheaper fix developed by now. 

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It could be my old post to which you are referring  .. .... beta 43.... aluminium pulleys and did have a travel pack set . Front pulleys came off at least 4 times . New woodfuff key made each time , the engine wasn't lifted on those occasions.  Tried pining the keyway , liquid steel  trusted engineer he tried all he could think off , went back to Beta on more than one occasion for advice ( beta dont really want to know )    but the last time we had to have the engine out, crankshaft re-ground a bigger keyway and woodruff key made . While in there new head gasket and drive plate ect . A re condition engine job   really.  The only regret is that we should have bitten the bullet and just got another engine,  one without this problem , because whatever you do it boils down to the fact , that it's an engineering fault that will one day happen again , sorry.  Bunny 

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13 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Helpful stuff from granddad.

Bear in mind 'Welsh Richard'(as he is known locally) can talk for Wales, so only visit him if you have an hour or two to spare :)  Lovely chap with a lot of interesting stuff to say.

Another suggestion is talk to Beta. They are well aware of this problem and might do a good deal on a short engine, or even have a cheaper fix developed by now. 

 

1 hour ago, Bunny said:

It could be my old post to which you are referring  .. .... beta 43.... aluminium pulleys and did have a travel pack set . Front pulleys came off at least 4 times . New woodfuff key made each time , the engine wasn't lifted on those occasions.  Tried pining the keyway , liquid steel  trusted engineer he tried all he could think off , went back to Beta on more than one occasion for advice ( beta dont really want to know )    but the last time we had to have the engine out, crankshaft re-ground a bigger keyway and woodruff key made . While in there new head gasket and drive plate ect . A re condition engine job   really.  The only regret is that we should have bitten the bullet and just got another engine,  one without this problem , because whatever you do it boils down to the fact , that it's an engineering fault that will one day happen again , sorry.  Bunny 

Been there, done it. My 1903 was one of the first that Beta sold with a big load on the front end. Heaven knows why they ever chopped off the splined shaft extension (probably a good reason like engine length...) in the first place. The Woodruff key is not intended to drive more than the basic services. On my engine a replacement crankshaft was £980 plus VAT. Stripping down extra, possible rebore and anything else could bring the price to a short engine. So that's what I did. Fitted Beta's multi poly-v pulley arrangement which takes its drive from the spline. A much better solution. Life's too short to do a bits and pieces job. Beta have kits which they buy in in 'bulk', so are not hugely expensive.

Sooo, have a firm discussion with them, be reasonable and hopefully they'll give you a reasonable offer.

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Beta are going to get back to me - much hinges on the engine number apparently, as early models cannot take the 'fix' pack and as said, by the time it has been taken out etc - might as well have a new one rather than try and fix a 20 yr old compromised one. Ouch ouch. 

Might even be a chance to reorganise the engine bay. There is a huge silencer that gets in the way of everything which I would like to put into the swim space - if a square one of the right size was a 'thing'. 

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22 minutes ago, Tigerr said:

Beta are going to get back to me - much hinges on the engine number apparently, as early models cannot take the 'fix' pack and as said, by the time it has been taken out etc - might as well have a new one rather than try and fix a 20 yr old compromised one. Ouch ouch. 

Might even be a chance to reorganise the engine bay. There is a huge silencer that gets in the way of everything which I would like to put into the swim space - if a square one of the right size was a 'thing'. 

You can tell if it's been chopped - have a look at the front end and see if there is a bit  of crankshaft  with splines on it, sticking out beyond the pulleys.

A short engine is probably not too horrendous a cost (!!) - provided that most of the extras, gearbox, pipework, manifold and mounting brackets will fit. Kubota made some external modifications to the range to comply with later emission requirements and Beta were concerned that some of the old parts would not fit.

The large silencer is probably a 'hospital' silencer and is worth retaining as it makes the engine much quieter.

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  • 2 weeks later...

An update - I know how interested you are! Have spoken to Beta and engineers.

Ouch! There is no economically viable fix, given the factors of engine age, type, and location. Perhaps if I were at a yard with an engine bench on hand, but even then the cost of rebuild is close to a new short engine cost, and no guarantee of long term success. So, bite the bullet and put in a new engine and pots, which will all work properly together. 

With luck it will be a straightforward lift out and switch. No boating this summer though with lead-times.

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Does a low hours 1998 Beta 43 with 12v and 3.5 kw travel pack, new bearings, but in need of bench work have residual value? It seems a tragedy to me that for want of some threading on a crankshaft the engine is finished. But, I don't have the means to recondition it.

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7 minutes ago, Tigerr said:

Does a low hours 1998 Beta 43 with 12v and 3.5 kw travel pack, new bearings, but in need of bench work have residual value? It seems a tragedy to me that for want of some threading on a crankshaft the engine is finished. But, I don't have the means to recondition it.

It would presumably have some value broken up for parts, especially bolt on bits like the fuel pump, injectors, travel power pack, alternator etc.

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Can you not remove the travel power and cabin alternator and bin their drive pulley gubbins, and just use the engines alternator with its original drive pulley which is behind the travel power and cabin alternator add on pulley instead, which is mounted in the normal orthodox fashion. Perhaps the larger output cabin alternator could be exchanged with the engines smaller alternator to operate a split charge relay to charge both engine and cabin battery banks . Or do you really need all that generation. Frankly I wouldn't have all that stuff hanging off the end of my crankshaft.

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1 hour ago, Tigerr said:

Does a low hours 1998 Beta 43 with 12v and 3.5 kw travel pack, new bearings, but in need of bench work have residual value? It seems a tragedy to me that for want of some threading on a crankshaft the engine is finished. But, I don't have the means to recondition it.

You would think so. With such an engine out of the boat and in a workshop, splitting the crankcases and fitting a new crankshaft is not a difficult job. You'd probably want to renew the bearing shells but they shouldn't be that expensive. At its heart, the Beta 43 is a kubota agricultural engine and parts - from a kubota dealer if necessary - shouldn't be particularly costly.

1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

It would presumably have some value broken up for parts, especially bolt on bits like the fuel pump, injectors, travel power pack, alternator etc.

But if the intention is to fit a new "short" engine, those bits will have to be transferred to the new engine.

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2 hours ago, bizzard said:

Frankly I wouldn't have all that stuff hanging off the end of my crankshaft.

...as Lord Palmerston said to Queen Victoria's husband in conversation at the Turkish baths.

Edited by billS
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9 hours ago, bizzard said:

Can you not remove the travel power and cabin alternator and bin their drive pulley gubbins, and just use the engines alternator with its original drive pulley which is behind the travel power and cabin alternator add on pulley instead, which is mounted in the normal orthodox fashion. Perhaps the larger output cabin alternator could be exchanged with the engines smaller alternator to operate a split charge relay to charge both engine and cabin battery banks . Or do you really need all that generation. Frankly I wouldn't have all that stuff hanging off the end of my crankshaft.

Certainly works on Vetus engines. They hang a 90/110 amp alternator in place of the standard 50 amp unit; it even retains the 10mm wide belt drive. Kubota engine uses the same mountintg arrangement, so should be possible; and a lot cheaper.

Edited by Eeyore
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4 minutes ago, Eeyore said:

Certainly works on Vetus engines. They hang a 90/110 amp alternator in place of the standard 50 amp unit; it even retains the 10mm wide belt drive. Kubota engine uses the same mountintg arrangement, so should be possible; and a lot cheaper.

But, if I understand it correctly (and am very open to correction), the problem with the older Beta 43 is that the domestic alt and TP pulleys are attached to the engine alt pulley, rather than have their own mountings on the splined extension. This puts excess load on the Woodruff key, especially if insufficient revs are used when doing heavy generation. The engine hunts and the Woodruff key's slot becomes widened. Once that's happened, the only solutions are either an engine strip to replace the crankshaft or a new short engine.

Those of us with such older 43s (and I'm one, I've got one of the last of them) need to mollycoddle the beast by always starting with enough throttle, so that the initial load on the alts is taken care of, and by making sure that when the domestic alt or TP is working hard the engine is kept running at at least 1000 rpm.

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Thinking out of the box, wouldn't it be possible for a good engineering workshop to weld up the woodruff key cutting, and then machine another one to the original dimesions?

Not a definitive fix, like the new engine would be, but would give the engine a new lease of life until it happened again in a few years time.

Alternstively, the original engine might be worth a few quid to someone who doesn't use a Travelpower but has a clapped out Beta 43.

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On 21/07/2017 at 07:01, BruceinSanity said:

But, if I understand it correctly (and am very open to correction), the problem with the older Beta 43 is that the domestic alt and TP pulleys are attached to the engine alt pulley, rather than have their own mountings on the splined extension. This puts excess load on the Woodruff key, especially if insufficient revs are used when doing heavy generation. The engine hunts and the Woodruff key's slot becomes widened. Once that's happened, the only solutions are either an engine strip to replace the crankshaft or a new short engine.

Those of us with such older 43s (and I'm one, I've got one of the last of them) need to mollycoddle the beast by always starting with enough throttle, so that the initial load on the alts is taken care of, and by making sure that when the domestic alt or TP is working hard the engine is kept running at at least 1000 rpm.

So revising my comment - has anyone done or heard of a successful repair that reverts the engine back to a single belt drive without removing or stripping the engine? This is just looking for a cost effective way of extracting the hours from an otherwise unserviceable engine.

Edited by Eeyore
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You are right there are possible engineering fixes, if I had time and the specialist skills, and were not reliant on canal engineers. The thing is one needs to be in the right place, to make it work financially with the time and the skills cost. The time and cost of moving (towing) the boat 2/3 days to a yard with the right facilities, and the skilled labour, breaks not far off the replacement lump. For the difference - it makes sense to get a complete new power plant with all the problems sorted, and several years of boating confidence ahead. I am sick of worrying about noises from this engine for 3 years and sunk a load of cash into fixes in the last 2 winters with highly reputable engineers that in fact would have paid for a new engine. I am done with that way.

I am also pretty unimpressed with the basic engineering of the Beta 43 of 1998 era - anyone can see the front end is simply a failure waiting to happen once you look at the bits - I am not an engineer but it is glaringly obvious this is a design failure at GCSE level. My engine is in fact very low hours - only 500 hours in its first 5 years. If I were running Beta I would be ashamed that my engines were falling to bits like this, so I could sell new engines to replace ones where a pulley thread failed. That is all that is wrong - a thread. It really is a bit shite.

Shame on Beta I say, and take care all you other Beta owners out there - that front end is a weak spot and it may cost you more than £6k. Nasty business, but I guess good business for some.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Eeyore said:

So revising my comment - has anyone done or heard of a successful repair that reverts the engine back to a single belt drive without removing or stripping the engine? This is just looking for a cost effective way of extracting the hours from an otherwise unserviceable engine.

Don't see how you could do it. That basic pulley is no longer secure because the Woodruff key is loose in its slot. You could weld a bodge without taking the crankshaft out, maybe, but I bet you'd have to lift the engine to get at it.

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I have a beta engine with this set up on and have managed to fit the modified pully support to the splined shaft extension I have had trouble with the pully that drives the generator which is not keyed to the shaft spinning plus drive belts,beta have been most helpful supplying parts at my exspence,speaking to people who worked on these set ups when new they were not reliable from new the mass weight which is driven at all times is excessive,there is someone on Facebook an engineer who has ground the shaft down and put a tapered collar and a taper on the pully to pull tight together don't now if that survived,me I have disconnected the generator belt as being an engineer it was like driving a ticking time bomb,I bought my boat second hand like you would a car and work for a major car manufacturer if there was a fault like this on a car the manufacturer would have recalled the car and fixed the problem.the problem here is that beta do not seem to have a fix on speaking to them there seemed to be a clutch  set up fitted onto the generator pully to cure the fault but this is not now offered maybe it did not work.

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On 7/21/2017 at 07:01, BruceinSanity said:

But, if I understand it correctly (and am very open to correction), the problem with the older Beta 43 is that the domestic alt and TP pulleys are attached to the engine alt pulley, rather than have their own mountings on the splined extension. This puts excess load on the Woodruff key, especially if insufficient revs are used when doing heavy generation. The engine hunts and the Woodruff key's slot becomes widened. Once that's happened, the only solutions are either an engine strip to replace the crankshaft or a new short engine.

Those of us with such older 43s (and I'm one, I've got one of the last of them) need to mollycoddle the beast by always starting with enough throttle, so that the initial load on the alts is taken care of, and by making sure that when the domestic alt or TP is working hard the engine is kept running at at least 1000 rpm.

That set up is a Can of Worms,made worse by those Engines not having a Damper plate on the Flywheel,(as Boat Engines really should)

On my BMC 2.5 I have installed a Microswitch on the Injector Pump at the Morse Cable end,it switches the Field control on the Twin A127 75 Amp/ Alternators,they are idle and not producing Power at Tick over, but begin Charging at Approx. 900 RPM.

Simple Stuff but effective.

 

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