Marinas that charge per ft width darn sarth

[Matt&Jo]

Come on peoples be sensible im no battery expert but i know a fair amount. The original post i responded to illuded to me not knowing anything. 

As per battery memory the old style wet batterys have plates with protective sleeves seperating them with the acid placed on usualy a mesh grid this acid if not maintained ie water levels monitored or charged fairly soon after discharge or left in a discharge state this can fall off and theirfore u get a form of charge failure known to ME as memory.

I have had campervans i had fitted out with batterys and smart charge systems so did alot of homework on batterys such as discharge levels ie 50% or 12.4v ish battery types and internal make up off a battery so lets not get stupid and jump on the back of my broad statement saying i fully understand batterys and charging as it was directed at a base knowledge level that the gentleman illuded to on a topic not linked to this thread. Lighten up people.......

 

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Matt&Jo

[MtB]

People who think subjects are simple, usually aren't understanding them very well. 

Or as my dear departed dad used to say, "if you think you understand what I just explained, I can't have explained it properly"

[Robbo]

49 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Isn't it lithium iron, not ion? 

But whatever, I've yet to encounter a lithium battery installation in a real life narrowboat. Is there anyone here successfully using them?

My next batteries will be Lithium, I’m off-grid so it makes sense.  The biggest plus is that you don’t need to regularly charge to 100% like you do with wet cell, the absorption charging phase is also very short so your overall charging times is greatly reduced.   The battery cost per cycle is roughly the same as Trojans now.

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 10:15, Robbo said:

My next batteries will be Lithium, I’m off-grid so it makes sense.  The biggest plus is that you don’t need to regularly charge to 100% like you do with wet cell, the absorption charging phase is also very short so your overall charging times is greatly reduced.   The battery cost per cycle is roughly the same as Trojans now.

 

I'm also off-grid, and I decided they don't make sense. 

How have you concluded the cost per cycle is the same as Trojans? Are you using my speed of wrecking them?!

[Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm also off-grid, and I decided they don't make sense. 

How have you concluded the cost per cycle is the same as Trojans? Are you using my speed of wrecking them?!

The cost of a lithium battery is roughly three times the cost of a Trojan battery (for the same ah’s and voltage of course), but the cycles is also three times higher (to the same 50% DoD).

You wreck the Trojans because you don’t charge often enough to 100%?  That’s the biggest advantage with lithium as they don’t need to be fully charged (keeping them at 100% is actually bad for them, so not suitable for boats on shore power).

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 10:34, Robbo said:

The cost of a lithium battery is roughly three times the cost of a Trojan battery (for the same ah’s and voltage of course), but the cycles is also three times higher (to the same 50% DoD).

You wreck the Trojans because you don’t charge often enough to 100%?  That’s the biggest advantage with lithium as they don’t need to be fully charged (keeping them at 100% is actually bad for them, so not suitable for boats on shore power).

 

Where are you getting them from for that price? I was looking at spending around £3k to get about 200AH usable capacity.

 

I fully appreciate how suitable they would be for me, this is why I checked them out. There was a killer problem though, and I don't think it was the price.

[Guest]

Crikey this thread has got lively - so just a flag wave for the AGM batteries we have, which are lasting well at 10 yrs old. We're off grid and they are charged either via engine running, generator and/or solar panels. We make sure they never drop below 50%.

[Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Where are you getting them from for that price? I was looking at spending around £3k to get about 200AH usable capacity.

 

http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/brands/relion-batteries/

[cereal tiller]

6 minutes ago, Robbo said:

The cost of a lithium battery is roughly three times the cost of a Trojan battery (for the same ah’s and voltage of course), but the cycles is also three times higher (to the same 50% DoD).

You wreck the Trojans because you don’t charge often enough to 100%?  That’s the biggest advantage with lithium as they don’t need to be fully charged (keeping them at 100% is actually bad for them, so not suitable for boats on shore power).

Have been looking at Lithium Batts. will likely use them when my new CA/CA Batteries have withered.

Installing them in a secure exterior Locker would likely be best?

[rusty69]

Think I will wait til you lot have bought into the Lithium thing and brought the price down

[Robbo]

Just now, cereal tiller said:

Have been looking at Lithium Batts. will likely use them when my new CA/CA Batteries have withered.

Installing them in a secure exterior Locker would likely be best?

They don’t need venting I believe.  The LiFePO4 batteries are not like the ones you get in phones so are are a lot safer.

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, Robbo said:

http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/brands/relion-batteries/

Jeeeeeeeeeeeesus 4 grand for 400 ahs thats ten times what I am paying now and one hell of a leap of faith!!

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

Installing them in a secure exterior Locker would likely be best?

At that price, it would have to be bl@@dy secure. 

[cereal tiller]

1 minute ago, Robbo said:

They don’t need venting I believe.  The LiFePO4 batteries are not like the ones you get in phones so are are a lot safer.

Was thinking of the Fire risk,they have had some History and the Spec. states that they have a Fire resistant layer built into the Case

[Robbo]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Where are you getting them from for that price? I was looking at spending around £3k to get about 200AH usable capacity.

 

I fully appreciate how suitable they would be for me, this is why I checked them out. There was a killer problem though, and I don't think it was the price.

Where were you looking 200ah usable at 3K sounds cheaper than the link I posted?   What was the killer problem (just incase I’ve missed it!)

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 10:49, mrsmelly said:

Jeeeeeeeeeeeesus 4 grand for 400 ahs thats ten times what I am paying now and one hell of a leap of faith!!

 

Bear in mind you can almost fully discharge them so you only need half the capacity you would have bought with lead acid. 

[Robbo]

2 minutes ago, cereal tiller said:

Was thinking of the Fire risk,they have had some History and the Spec. states that they have a Fire resistant layer built into the Case

Quote

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

Phosphate based technology possesses superior thermal and chemical stability which provides better safety characteristics than those of Lithium-ion technology made with other cathode materials. Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible in the event of mishandling during charge or discharge, they are more stable under overcharge or short circuit conditions and they can withstand high temperatures without decomposing. When abuse does occur, the phosphate based cathode material will not burn and is not prone to thermal runaway. Phosphate chemistry also offers a longer cycle life.

http://www.epectec.com/batteries/lithium-battery-technologies.html

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Robbo

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 10:52, cereal tiller said:

Was thinking of the Fire risk,they have had some History and the Spec. states that they have a Fire resistant layer built into the Case

Yes I think this was the problem that steered me away from them. ISTR if they catch fire they self-oxygenate so there is no way to put them out, and the burn hot enough to melt steel so a burning one will sink your boat.

Edit to add:

This is wrong, and contradicted by the website linked to by Robbo. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Bear in mind you can almost fully discharge them so you only need half the capacity you would have bought with lead acid. 

Ahh true but still over 2k for my present useage I think I will give it a miss.

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 10:43, Robbo said:

http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/brands/relion-batteries/

 

Thanks for the link. A bit worrying that there is no mention of how to charge them. Or any instruction manuals on the site, unless I'm failing to see them.

[bizzard]

Boeing 787 Dreamliners catching light because of them. Seem to have fixed it now though.

[cereal tiller]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Yes I think this was the problem that steered me away from them. ISTR if they catch fire they self-oxygenate so there is no way to put them out, and the burn hot enough to melt steel so a burning one will sink your boat.

So,Steel locker lined With Fire Bricks and a big CO2 auto Fire Extinguisher?

And Life raft ready to deploy,Doddle!

[MtB]

On 01/07/2017 at 10:56, mrsmelly said:

Ahh true but still over 2k for my present useage I think I will give it a miss.

 

Well given I spent £400 on a set of Trojanoids that don't work, £2k for a set of these would be excellent value! 

Provided they do want they are claimed to do. about which I still have my doubts.

On 01/07/2017 at 11:00, bizzard said:

Boeing 787 Dreamliners catching light because of them. Seem to have fixed it now though.

 

They had probably connected them up the wrong way around... An easy mistake to make with a battery. Ask starcoaster!

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Well given I spent £400 on a set of Trojanoids that don't work, £2k for a set of these would be excellent value! 

Provided they do want they are claimed to do. about which I still have my doubts.

Agreed with your impossible due to work commitments charging regime they may well be the answer. I suppose the price will drop over the coming years much like solar has come down?

[cereal tiller]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Agreed with your impossible due to work commitments charging regime they may well be the answer. I suppose the price will drop over the coming years much like solar has come down?

Not much gets past you Tim