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Arthur Marshall

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15 hours ago, Midnight said:

Peel would ask for them if their enforcement team spotted me 

Presumably then Peel would send me an invoice.
I would ignore that so get a summons.
I tell the court I didn't believe Peel had any powers to charge me.

Would I have to prove they didn't or would Peel have to prove they did?

Would you go to these lengths to avoid a charge of £40?

I'd say that Peel, as the Claimant, would have to prove a charge was due, on the balance of probabilities. I'd guess that they wouldn't have too much trouble doing so.

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1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

Would you go to these lengths to avoid a charge of £40?

I'd say that Peel, as the Claimant, would have to prove a charge was due, on the balance of probabilities. I'd guess that they wouldn't have too much trouble doing so.

Don't be daft I'm a Yorkshire man that £40 is equivalent to a lottery win. Anyway somebody has to stand up and be counted.

Reading some of the comments on the other forum I'm not too sure a magistrate's court would be able to make a judgement and probably defer the case. Perhaps then for the sake of £40 Peel (BCC) wouldn't be so bothered.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 00:15, Iain_S said:

Peel would have to prove that they did.

My conclusion, however, as discussed at length in the other place, is that all they would have to do is cite Article 7 of The Bridgewater Canal (Transfer of Undertaking) Order 2012.

This does, however, contain the proviso " This article does not authorise the making of any charge in a case where an enactment relating to the Bridgewater Canal expressly or impliedly provides for freedom from charges or otherwise prohibits the making of any charge."
It would then be up to you to find the elusive enactment before the case came to Court.
 

Having read Nigel Moore's latest post on the other place I am interested to know if your conclusion has changed. The legal stuff is over my head but it seems BCC do not have any power to charge after all - is that correct?

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For the benefit of those on this site, I have found the 1961 Byelaws that are referred to, which were indeed authorised by the Transport Ministry on 5 June 1961 -

BRIDGEWATER CANALS

BYE LAWS

Made by the Manchester Ship Canal Company under and in pursuance of the powers contained in the Manchester Ship Canal Acts 1885--1956 and all other powers thereunto enabling them.

These Bye-laws shall apply to the Bridgewater Canals as herein after defined and to the undertaking of the Company connected herewith or appurtenant thereto

PART I.

(1)          These Bye-laws shall come into operation on the date on which the Bridgewater Canals Rules, 1870 are revoked by Order in Council

(2)          In these Bye-laws the following words and expressions have the following meanings (except where the subject or context otherwise requires).

"The Company" means The Manchester Ship Canal Company.

"Canal" means

(i) The Bridgewater Canal from Knott Mill in the city of Manchester to Runcorn in the County of Chester together with the branch from Waters Meeting Stretford in the County of Lancaster to its junction with the Leeds and Liverpool Canal at Leigh in the County of Lancaster

(ii) The Runcorn and Weston Canal from its junction with the Weaver Navigation, at Green's Lock (otherwise known as Miller’s Lock) to Runcorn in the County of Chester

(iii) All cuts waterways channels towing paths bridges docks including Runcorn Docks quays basins ponds lay-byes work and Premises connected with the Bridgewater Canal and the Runcorn and Weston Canal and belonging to or under the control of the company.

“Vessel" includes any ship, boat, barge, lighter or raft and any other description of craft whether used in navigation or not.

“Master" means the person having command or charge of the vessel for the time being.

“Navigating” includes 'mooring and unmooring.

 (3)         Any person who offends against any of these bye-laws shall be liable for every offence to a penalty not exceeding £5 and to a daily penalty not exceeding 40 shillings for every day such offence shall continue after conviction.

(4)          it shall be the duty of the master of any vessel on the Canal to comply with Parts II, III, IV, and V of these Bye-laws.

PART II

VESSELS USED ON THE CANAL

(5)          No vessel which is not in every respect watertight and fit for navigation shall be brought onto used or left on the Canal.

(6)          Every vessel on the Canal shall have her name clearly exhibited on each side so as to be distinctly legible at all times.

(7)          Every vessel on the Canal shall have available at all times adequate equipment for fighting fire.

(8)          Every mechanically propelled vessel shall be equipped with a horn or other suitable warning device in good working condition.

PART III.

NAVIGATION

(9)          Every vessel shall at all times be navigated with care and caution and in such a manner as will not involve risk of collision or endanger other vessels or their moorings or cause damage thereto or to the banks of the Canal or to any part of the Company’s property. Every vessel when approaching a lock or other vessel or when approaching any place where dredging or works of repair, maintenance or construction are in progress shall reduce speed and if necessary stop altogether.

(10)        No vessel shall navigate at a speed in excess of 4 mph and every vessel shall comply with all dead slow notices displayed along the Canal.

(11)        Every vessel navigating the Canal shall have available for immediate use an adequate supply of fenders made of suitable material and in good condition and such fenders shall be used whenever there is risk of the vessel striking any other vessel or any wall, lockgate, bridge or other thing.

(12)        Every vessel navigating the Canal between sunset and sunrise shall carry a white light clearly visible fore and aft.

(14)        Every mechanically propelled vessel when approaching any lock or bridge or when rounding a turn in the Canal or when audible notice of approach is necessary shall give adequate warning by sounding her horn or other suitable warning device.

 (15)       Every vessel when meeting or being overtaken by another vessel shall keep to her own starboard side provided that every vessel which              overtakes another vessel shall pass on the port side of the vessel being overtaken but a mechanically propelled vessel which meets or overtakes a horse-drawn vessel shall so navigate as to enable the horse-drawn vessel to pass between the towpath and the mechanically propi1ed vessel.

 (16)       Where two vessels meet each other on any part of the Canal where they cannot pass in safety the vessel which is nearer to a place where they can pass in safety shall navigate to that place and allow the other vessel to pass provided always that

(i)            an unladen vessel shall give way to a laden vessel

(ii)           a vessel which is not towing another vessel shall give way to a vessel which is towing another vessel.

(17)        (i)            Vessels navigating to or from any branch or arm of the Canal shall give way to vessels passing the entrance to such branch or arm.

(ii)           Vessels navigating from any branch or arm of the Canal shall give way to vessels entering such branch or arm.

(iii)          On the main Canal (being the Canal between Manchester and Runcorn) vessels entering any branch or arm of the Canal from the direction of Runcorn shall give way to vessels entering such branch or arm from the direction of Manchester.

(iv)          On the Leigh branch of the Canal (being the Canal from Waters Meeting, Stretford, to Leigh) vessels entering any branch or arm from the direction of Leigh shall give way to vessels entering such branch or arm from the direction of Waters Meeting.

 

PART IV.

LOCKS AND BRIDGES

 (18)       Every vessel navigating through or near any lock at which a with directions. lock-keeper or other employee of the Company is on duty or through or near Barton Aqueduct shall comply with the directions given by the lock-keeper, bridge-tender or other person in charge thereof

(19)        (i)            Every vessel when approaching or entering a lock shall proceed dead slow through the water and no vessel shall enter or leave a lock until the gates are fully open.

(ii)           No vessel shall turn her propeller whilst in a lock.

(iii)          No vessel shall be used to assist in the opening of the gates of a lock.

(iv)          A vessel approaching or entering a lock shall keep clear of any vessel which is leaving the lock.

(v)           No vessel shall enter upon Barton Aqueduct when another vessel approaching from the opposite direction is entering or is already upon the Aqueduct and no vessel shall approach so close to the Aqueduct as to hinder  or endanger other craft leaving the Aqueduct

 (20)       No person shall

(i)            open any lock gate or sluice at one end of a lock unless the gates and sluices at the other end of the lock are closed

                (ii)           open or close or attempt to open or close the gate of any lock except by the means provided for that purpose or before the water is level on both sides of the gate

                (iii)          draw or operate any sluices until the lock gates are closed

                (iv)          operate or leave open any sluices or gate so as to waste water

                (v)           operate any sluice otherwise than by means of the handle or other device normally used for that purpose

                (vi)          fill or empty any lock of water for the admission of any vessel to the lock when there is another vessel approaching the lock from the opposite direction, and within 200 yards thereof and the level of the water in the lock is suitable for such approaching vessel to enter the lock

                (vii)        cause or allow any vessel to remain in a lock longer than necessary for the convenient passage thereof.

(21)        Every vessel having passed a movable bridge shall close it to Canal traffic unless there is another vessel within 200 yards of the bridge and intending to pass it.

PART V.

MOORING OF VESSELS

(22)        Every vessel moored in the Canal (other than a dredger or other vessel engaged in works of maintenance or construction on the Canal) shall be well and securely moored as close as may be to the side of the Canal with good and sufficient ropes fore and aft and in such a manner and in such a position as not to obstruct other vessels.

(23)        (i) No mooring rope, chain or other tackle shall be made fast to any fence hedge, sluice, lock gate, bridge or canal work not provided for the purpose of mooring

                (ii. No vessel shall be moored under or within 25 yards of any bridge without the consent of the Company.

(24)        No vessel, shall be placed or lie in or near any dock or basin at or near any stop place cranes or wharf otherwise than in accordance with the instructions given by the Company's officers.

(25)        No vessel shall approach or moor alongside or near any warehouse or shed unless all open lights are first extinguished and unless an efficient spark arrester is fitted to the chimney of any stove containing a live fire.

(26)        When a vessel is moored her propeller shall not be set in motion without the permission of the Company.               

PART VI

GENERAL

(27)        No person shall use or permit the use of any vessel on the Canal as a club, shop, store, workshop, dwelling or houseboat without the written consent of the Company.

(28)        No person shall obstruct, interfere with or hinder the navigation of any vessel on the Canal

(29)        No person shall cause or permit any vessel to navigate the Canal unless there is on board at least one person capable of managing and steering the vessel and conversant with the rules of navigating the Canal

(30)        No person shall turn any vessel adrift upon the Canal or shall unless authorised by the Master of the vessel or by the Company cast off or interfere with any mooring rope or fastening of any vessel

(31)        No person shall wilfully or negligently suffer any vessel to run aground or sink in the Canal

(32)        The owner or person in charge of any vessel which runs aground or sinks in the Canal shall forthwith inform the Company and take all steps necessary to warn other vessels of such running aground or sinking.

(33)        The owner or person in charge of any vessel which runs aground or sinks or obstructs the navigation of vessels in the Canal shall on request forthwith and according to the directions of the Company raise or remove the vessel at his own cost.

(34)        (i)            Where a Notice is exhibited drawing attention to the provisions of this Bye-law, no person shall trespass on any part of the Company's property provided that this part of this Bye-law shall not apply to the towpath along the Bridgwater Canal s defIned by Bye-law 2 (i).

(ii)           No person shall carelessly, or negligently deface injure destroy or interfere with any property of the Company.

(35)        No person unless authorised by the Company or otherwise legally entitled so to do shall operate or interfere with any lock, lockgate, sluice, by pass, dam, weir, bridge or any other work connected with affecting or forming part of the Canal or with any vehicle, vessel, crane, jigger, hoist, capstan or other machinery or working appliance upon the Canal except in case of emergency.

(36)        No person unless authorised by the Company or otherwise legally entitled so to do shall

(i)            remain on any towpath after being requested to quit the same by any servant of the Company

(ii)           obstruct any towpath or interfere with the authorised use thereof

(iii)          leave open any gate or rail used as a fence alongside across or on any way leading to a towpath.

(37)       No person shall deface or alter any permit issued by the Company. Any person who is on the Company's property or is performing any act under or by virtue of a permit issued by the Company shall produce such permit to any duly authorised officer or servant of the Company whenever requested so to do.

(38)        No person shall

(i)            cause the Canal to be polluted

(ii)           discharge or permit to be discharged into the Canal any oil or spirit of any description or any mixture containing oil or spirit

(iii)          throw or deposit into or on the Canal or the banks towpaths or other works of the Canal any animal (alive or dead), stone, rubbish, matter or thing whatsoever.

(39)        No person without the written consent of the Company shall

(i)            connect any pipe culvert or drain to the Canal or permit any pipe culvert or drain to discharge on to any property of the Company

(ii)           take any water from the Canal

(iii)          bathe in the Canal

(iv)         take or kill any fish in the Canal or use any, gun net snare trap spear instrument or device for catching or killing any fish game or creature upon the Canal or the land of the Company

(v)          dredge or remove coal or other material from the Canal.

(40)        No person shall, without the Company's consent, float timber or any other material on the Canal or on any part thereof.

(41)        No person shall throw propel or project stones or other missiles from into or over any vessel or the Canal.               

(42)        No person shall, without the Company's consent affix or exhibit any notice, sign or advertisement on or in any property of the Company.

 

The Common Seal of the Manchester Ship Canal Company was hereunto Affixed on the thirteenth

day of April 1961

In the presence of:-

(two) Directors & Secretary

 

The Minister of Transport hereby confirms the foregoing Bye-laws.

Signed on behalf of the Minister of Transport on the fifth day of June 1961

Signed K T Harrison  Assistant Secretary.

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23 hours ago, NigelMoore said:

For the benefit of those on this site, I have found the 1961 Byelaws that are referred to, which were indeed authorised by the Transport Ministry on 5 June 1961 -

BRIDGEWATER CANALS

BYE LAWS

Made by the Manchester Ship Canal Company under and in pursuance of the powers contained in the Manchester Ship Canal Acts 1885--1956 and all other powers thereunto enabling them.

These Bye-laws shall apply to the Bridgewater Canals as herein after defined and to the undertaking of the Company connected herewith or appurtenant thereto

PART I.

(1)          These Bye-laws shall come into operation on the date on which the Bridgewater Canals Rules, 1870 are revoked by Order in Council

(2)          In these Bye-laws the following words and expressions have the following meanings (except where the subject or context otherwise requires).

"The Company" means The Manchester Ship Canal Company.

"Canal" means

(i) The Bridgewater Canal from Knott Mill in the city of Manchester to Runcorn in the County of Chester together with the branch from Waters Meeting Stretford in the County of Lancaster to its junction with the Leeds and Liverpool Canal at Leigh in the County of Lancaster

(ii) The Runcorn and Weston Canal from its junction with the Weaver Navigation, at Green's Lock (otherwise known as Miller’s Lock) to Runcorn in the County of Chester

(iii) All cuts waterways channels towing paths bridges docks including Runcorn Docks quays basins ponds lay-byes work and Premises connected with the Bridgewater Canal and the Runcorn and Weston Canal and belonging to or under the control of the company.

“Vessel" includes any ship, boat, barge, lighter or raft and any other description of craft whether used in navigation or not.

“Master" means the person having command or charge of the vessel for the time being.

“Navigating” includes 'mooring and unmooring.

 (3)         Any person who offends against any of these bye-laws shall be liable for every offence to a penalty not exceeding £5 and to a daily penalty not exceeding 40 shillings for every day such offence shall continue after conviction.

(4)          it shall be the duty of the master of any vessel on the Canal to comply with Parts II, III, IV, and V of these Bye-laws.

PART II

VESSELS USED ON THE CANAL

(5)          No vessel which is not in every respect watertight and fit for navigation shall be brought onto used or left on the Canal.

(6)          Every vessel on the Canal shall have her name clearly exhibited on each side so as to be distinctly legible at all times.

(7)          Every vessel on the Canal shall have available at all times adequate equipment for fighting fire.

(8)          Every mechanically propelled vessel shall be equipped with a horn or other suitable warning device in good working condition.

PART III.

NAVIGATION

(9)          Every vessel shall at all times be navigated with care and caution and in such a manner as will not involve risk of collision or endanger other vessels or their moorings or cause damage thereto or to the banks of the Canal or to any part of the Company’s property. Every vessel when approaching a lock or other vessel or when approaching any place where dredging or works of repair, maintenance or construction are in progress shall reduce speed and if necessary stop altogether.

(10)        No vessel shall navigate at a speed in excess of 4 mph and every vessel shall comply with all dead slow notices displayed along the Canal.

(11)        Every vessel navigating the Canal shall have available for immediate use an adequate supply of fenders made of suitable material and in good condition and such fenders shall be used whenever there is risk of the vessel striking any other vessel or any wall, lockgate, bridge or other thing.

(12)        Every vessel navigating the Canal between sunset and sunrise shall carry a white light clearly visible fore and aft.

(14)        Every mechanically propelled vessel when approaching any lock or bridge or when rounding a turn in the Canal or when audible notice of approach is necessary shall give adequate warning by sounding her horn or other suitable warning device.

 (15)       Every vessel when meeting or being overtaken by another vessel shall keep to her own starboard side provided that every vessel which              overtakes another vessel shall pass on the port side of the vessel being overtaken but a mechanically propelled vessel which meets or overtakes a horse-drawn vessel shall so navigate as to enable the horse-drawn vessel to pass between the towpath and the mechanically propi1ed vessel.

 (16)       Where two vessels meet each other on any part of the Canal where they cannot pass in safety the vessel which is nearer to a place where they can pass in safety shall navigate to that place and allow the other vessel to pass provided always that

(i)            an unladen vessel shall give way to a laden vessel

(ii)           a vessel which is not towing another vessel shall give way to a vessel which is towing another vessel.

(17)        (i)            Vessels navigating to or from any branch or arm of the Canal shall give way to vessels passing the entrance to such branch or arm.

(ii)           Vessels navigating from any branch or arm of the Canal shall give way to vessels entering such branch or arm.

(iii)          On the main Canal (being the Canal between Manchester and Runcorn) vessels entering any branch or arm of the Canal from the direction of Runcorn shall give way to vessels entering such branch or arm from the direction of Manchester.

(iv)          On the Leigh branch of the Canal (being the Canal from Waters Meeting, Stretford, to Leigh) vessels entering any branch or arm from the direction of Leigh shall give way to vessels entering such branch or arm from the direction of Waters Meeting.

 

PART IV.

LOCKS AND BRIDGES

 (18)       Every vessel navigating through or near any lock at which a with directions. lock-keeper or other employee of the Company is on duty or through or near Barton Aqueduct shall comply with the directions given by the lock-keeper, bridge-tender or other person in charge thereof

(19)        (i)            Every vessel when approaching or entering a lock shall proceed dead slow through the water and no vessel shall enter or leave a lock until the gates are fully open.

(ii)           No vessel shall turn her propeller whilst in a lock.

(iii)          No vessel shall be used to assist in the opening of the gates of a lock.

(iv)          A vessel approaching or entering a lock shall keep clear of any vessel which is leaving the lock.

(v)           No vessel shall enter upon Barton Aqueduct when another vessel approaching from the opposite direction is entering or is already upon the Aqueduct and no vessel shall approach so close to the Aqueduct as to hinder  or endanger other craft leaving the Aqueduct

 (20)       No person shall

(i)            open any lock gate or sluice at one end of a lock unless the gates and sluices at the other end of the lock are closed

                (ii)           open or close or attempt to open or close the gate of any lock except by the means provided for that purpose or before the water is level on both sides of the gate

                (iii)          draw or operate any sluices until the lock gates are closed

                (iv)          operate or leave open any sluices or gate so as to waste water

                (v)           operate any sluice otherwise than by means of the handle or other device normally used for that purpose

                (vi)          fill or empty any lock of water for the admission of any vessel to the lock when there is another vessel approaching the lock from the opposite direction, and within 200 yards thereof and the level of the water in the lock is suitable for such approaching vessel to enter the lock

                (vii)        cause or allow any vessel to remain in a lock longer than necessary for the convenient passage thereof.

(21)        Every vessel having passed a movable bridge shall close it to Canal traffic unless there is another vessel within 200 yards of the bridge and intending to pass it.

PART V.

MOORING OF VESSELS

(22)        Every vessel moored in the Canal (other than a dredger or other vessel engaged in works of maintenance or construction on the Canal) shall be well and securely moored as close as may be to the side of the Canal with good and sufficient ropes fore and aft and in such a manner and in such a position as not to obstruct other vessels.

(23)        (i) No mooring rope, chain or other tackle shall be made fast to any fence hedge, sluice, lock gate, bridge or canal work not provided for the purpose of mooring

                (ii. No vessel shall be moored under or within 25 yards of any bridge without the consent of the Company.

(24)        No vessel, shall be placed or lie in or near any dock or basin at or near any stop place cranes or wharf otherwise than in accordance with the instructions given by the Company's officers.

(25)        No vessel shall approach or moor alongside or near any warehouse or shed unless all open lights are first extinguished and unless an efficient spark arrester is fitted to the chimney of any stove containing a live fire.

(26)        When a vessel is moored her propeller shall not be set in motion without the permission of the Company.               

PART VI

GENERAL

(27)        No person shall use or permit the use of any vessel on the Canal as a club, shop, store, workshop, dwelling or houseboat without the written consent of the Company.

(28)        No person shall obstruct, interfere with or hinder the navigation of any vessel on the Canal

(29)        No person shall cause or permit any vessel to navigate the Canal unless there is on board at least one person capable of managing and steering the vessel and conversant with the rules of navigating the Canal

(30)        No person shall turn any vessel adrift upon the Canal or shall unless authorised by the Master of the vessel or by the Company cast off or interfere with any mooring rope or fastening of any vessel

(31)        No person shall wilfully or negligently suffer any vessel to run aground or sink in the Canal

(32)        The owner or person in charge of any vessel which runs aground or sinks in the Canal shall forthwith inform the Company and take all steps necessary to warn other vessels of such running aground or sinking.

(33)        The owner or person in charge of any vessel which runs aground or sinks or obstructs the navigation of vessels in the Canal shall on request forthwith and according to the directions of the Company raise or remove the vessel at his own cost.

(34)        (i)            Where a Notice is exhibited drawing attention to the provisions of this Bye-law, no person shall trespass on any part of the Company's property provided that this part of this Bye-law shall not apply to the towpath along the Bridgwater Canal s defIned by Bye-law 2 (i).

(ii)           No person shall carelessly, or negligently deface injure destroy or interfere with any property of the Company.

(35)        No person unless authorised by the Company or otherwise legally entitled so to do shall operate or interfere with any lock, lockgate, sluice, by pass, dam, weir, bridge or any other work connected with affecting or forming part of the Canal or with any vehicle, vessel, crane, jigger, hoist, capstan or other machinery or working appliance upon the Canal except in case of emergency.

(36)        No person unless authorised by the Company or otherwise legally entitled so to do shall

(i)            remain on any towpath after being requested to quit the same by any servant of the Company

(ii)           obstruct any towpath or interfere with the authorised use thereof

(iii)          leave open any gate or rail used as a fence alongside across or on any way leading to a towpath.

(37)       No person shall deface or alter any permit issued by the Company. Any person who is on the Company's property or is performing any act under or by virtue of a permit issued by the Company shall produce such permit to any duly authorised officer or servant of the Company whenever requested so to do.

(38)        No person shall

(i)            cause the Canal to be polluted

(ii)           discharge or permit to be discharged into the Canal any oil or spirit of any description or any mixture containing oil or spirit

(iii)          throw or deposit into or on the Canal or the banks towpaths or other works of the Canal any animal (alive or dead), stone, rubbish, matter or thing whatsoever.

(39)        No person without the written consent of the Company shall

(i)            connect any pipe culvert or drain to the Canal or permit any pipe culvert or drain to discharge on to any property of the Company

(ii)           take any water from the Canal

(iii)          bathe in the Canal

(iv)         take or kill any fish in the Canal or use any, gun net snare trap spear instrument or device for catching or killing any fish game or creature upon the Canal or the land of the Company

(v)          dredge or remove coal or other material from the Canal.

(40)        No person shall, without the Company's consent, float timber or any other material on the Canal or on any part thereof.

(41)        No person shall throw propel or project stones or other missiles from into or over any vessel or the Canal.               

(42)        No person shall, without the Company's consent affix or exhibit any notice, sign or advertisement on or in any property of the Company.

 

The Common Seal of the Manchester Ship Canal Company was hereunto Affixed on the thirteenth

day of April 1961

In the presence of:-

(two) Directors & Secretary

 

The Minister of Transport hereby confirms the foregoing Bye-laws.

Signed on behalf of the Minister of Transport on the fifth day of June 1961

Signed K T Harrison  Assistant Secretary.

Thank you Nigel for posting that on here. Like I said a bit over my simples-smoggie head but am I correct in thinking the above changes nothing in the previous acts so effectively BCC have no legal backing to charge for a 28 day return passage (or longer stay) or would that need to be tested in court before a definite answer was found?

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Unfortunately there is no "or" about it. There is nothing in the byelaws about such restrictions or charges [nor, according to those who have read all prior relevant legislation], anything anywhere else. So they have no legal backing in that case, but they would not accept that AND would probably force the issue into court if people challenged it.

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45 minutes ago, bill brown said:

You also might find it difficult leaving a lock without flouting 19 (ii) :huh:

 

Same applies to (26). In both cases, presumably, you can cast off/pull your boat away manually and then engage the prop. Otherwise, once moored up you could not legally leave [under power, anyway], until specifically authorised so to do.

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In the (paper) copy of the byelaws I have somewhere on my boat I strictly remember reading that it was against said byelaws to stay in any one spot on the towpath, excluding such places as Lymm, Castlefield and The No 3 where either 48 or 72 hrs are allowed. 

The recently introduced Platinum license which enables you to stay on your boat in any 1 spot (excluding places above) completely contradicts what it says in the byelaws. It will be interesting to find out what the score on this is.

Liam

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20 minutes ago, Liam said:

In the (paper) copy of the byelaws I have somewhere on my boat I strictly remember reading that it was against said byelaws to stay in any one spot on the towpath, excluding such places as Lymm, Castlefield and The No 3 where either 48 or 72 hrs are allowed. 

The recently introduced Platinum license which enables you to stay on your boat in any 1 spot (excluding places above) completely contradicts what it says in the byelaws. It will be interesting to find out what the score on this is.

Liam

As the byelaws approved by Government do not include such restriction, I suspect that you may be recalling Terms & Conditions instead, which if claiming the authority of the byelaws are in error.

Even if the byelaws had included the specific restrictions you quote, I cannot see any reason why they could not choose to refrain from prosecuting where they equally specifically permitted such mooring. Ordinarily, the byelaw would contain wording such as "without consent of the Company" [which they did a lot of in the drafts], but even so . . .

Interestingly though - regarding the "without consent of the Company" that the draft included in certain byelaws - some of these were excised, because it was noted by the government of the day that the Company were in no position to give consent for certain otherwise prohibited actions. A classic example being that restricting fishing, which included use of explosives - as with all other forms of fishing, prohibited in the draft byelaws unless authorised by the Company. It was pointed out that the Company had no power to give consent to dynamiting fish, which had previously been made an offence generally, under other legislation.

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On 8/31/2017 at 18:22, NigelMoore said:

Unfortunately there is no "or" about it. There is nothing in the byelaws about such restrictions or charges [nor, according to those who have read all prior relevant legislation], anything anywhere else. So they have no legal backing in that case, but they would not accept that AND would probably force the issue into court if people challenged it.

Not sure if anyone has read all the prior relevant legislation,as a lot of it is difficult to find ;),but Section 7 of  The Bridgewater Canal (Transfer of Undertaking) Order 2012 states:

Quote

Charges

7.—(1) On and after the transfer date the Company in the exercise of its statutory powers and duties in the Bridgewater Canal, has power to make reasonable charges in respect of vessels which navigate or use the Bridgewater Canal.

(2) Nothing in paragraph (1) affects the right of the Company to make charges in respect of other services or facilities provided by the Company in relation to a vessel which navigates or uses the Bridgewater Canal.

(3) This article does not authorise the making of any charge in a case where an enactment relating to the Bridgewater Canal expressly or impliedly provides for freedom from charges or otherwise prohibits the making of any charge.

I know we disagree about the import of sub section (3), but I believe that an enactment has to have been enacted, and is not merely the absence  of an enactment to the contrary.

Edited by Iain_S
Remove my last from quote. (Failed as unable to select my added text!)
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The shortest way of putting the point, is that according to legal precedent, in the absence of an enactment specifically authorising a particular charge, it is to be taken as being prohibited.

Due to ignorance, I take no position on whether the Bridgewater legislation has ever authorised such charges as are disputed.

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"has power to make reasonable charges in respect of vessels which navigate or use the Bridgewater Canal." would seem to authorise the charging of vessels to navigate or use the Bridgewater Canal.

If this cannot be the case, due to the lack of previous legislation specifically authorising a particular charge, it is hard to see how any law can be changed! :unsure: 

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You are of course omitting the relevant qualifier.

I don't understand your quandary - any law can be changed/added to by having a new Act [or byelaw] passed specifically authorising [as relevant to this example] the grant of a licence for which charges can be made. That is exactly what BW did in 1975. They did the same sort of thing when wanting to be able to supply treated water and charge for it. Previously, legislation provided only for an ability to supply and charge for water; by way of a Statutory Instrument this was extended to treated water.

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3 hours ago, Iain_S said:

And, in this case, at least one law allowing charging for use has been passed.

No, your quoted legislation does NOT grant the rights you claim, by reason of the qualifying subsection 3.

However we suffer from a cognitive disjunction over this that must be a bore to others, and unprofitable to pursue.

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On 9/2/2017 at 11:38, Iain_S said:

(3) This article does not authorise the making of any charge in a case where an enactment relating to the Bridgewater Canal expressly or impliedly provides for freedom from charges or otherwise prohibits the making of any charge.

An enactment is something that has been enacted; it is not something the opposite of which has not been enacted. In this case it would be legislation prohibiting charges, not merely the absence of any legislation. Subsection 3 only applies IF there is previous legislation prohibiting a charge being made, and not if there is no previous legislation. If there is none, then subsection 1 applies, and charges can be made.

14 hours ago, NigelMoore said:

However we suffer from a cognitive disjunction over this that must be a bore to others, and unprofitable to pursue.

I agree, and the same discussion has taken place in many places :D, but there appears to be an element of wishful thinking that Peel are acting illegally by charging pleasure vessels for a second transit within 28 days, (or for a Bridgewater licence), and I believe that any boater who got involved in Court proceedings over such charges would certainly lose.

Maybe we should both rest our cases ... :cheers:

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10 hours ago, Iain_S said:

I believe that any boater who got involved in Court proceedings over such charges would certainly lose.

I agree as to the likelihood of a court case being lost – regardless of the merits. As I have said, I am in no position to comment on whether such charges ARE provided for or not, having not seen the relevant legislation.

 Section 7 of the 2012 Order you quote is in fact similar, and to the same effect as, section 4 of The British Transport Commission (Inland Waterways) Charges Scheme 1958.

 Prior to that Charges Scheme [issued under the auspices of the British Transport Commission Act 1947], all charges were fixed according to the levels laid down by previous enactments. Following it, BW were freed from the rigid levels set down, and could make such charges as they determined – provided only that they were reasonable; the test of reasonableness being determined, in case of challenge or application, by the Transport Tribunal.

 The subsequent Transport Act 1962 abolished even that requirement, though it [the 1962 Act] does not apply to the Bridgewater, where the permitted charges must still, under s.7 of the 2012 Order, be reasonable. The 2012 Order says no more than that, with the same caveat as s.43 as to its application.

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All very interesting;  kudos and thanks to those with the application and knowledge to study and advise on the original documents.

However, the practical point surely is that only the very wealthy/very foolhardy get involved in court cases against organisations with large legal departments of their own, for the sake of £40?

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1 hour ago, DRP said:

All very interesting;  kudos and thanks to those with the application and knowledge to study and advise on the original documents.

However, the practical point surely is that only the very wealthy/very foolhardy get involved in court cases against organisations with large legal departments of their own, for the sake of £40?

Agreed... it's often legal fees rather than the actual law that encourage, or discourage, action.

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11 hours ago, DRP said:

All very interesting;  kudos and thanks to those with the application and knowledge to study and advise on the original documents.

However, the practical point surely is that only the very wealthy/very foolhardy get involved in court cases against organisations with large legal departments of their own, for the sake of £40?

I'm probably foolhardy definitely not wealthy but I've taken on a number councils,  utilities, debt recovery agency's and numerous car parking enforcement companies and in not one case have I ever had to pay anything towards costs or anything more than the original charge. Invariably the bullies back down at the merest hint of opposition and will come to an arrangement or simply give up and pursue someone else who simply pops a cheque in the post to them. 

Ive never actually had to go to court in any of the cases but the willingness to and making counterclaims for costs and expenses seems to do the trick. 

So my guess is that peel probably can't be arsed to take real legal action over 40 quid but will be happy to send increasingly threatening letters before giving up or more likely pass it on to a debt recovery agency...

anyone who Hands over 40 quid on the towpath,  well the old adage a fool and his money.....

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15 hours ago, jonathanA said:

I'm probably foolhardy definitely not wealthy but I've taken on a number councils,  utilities, debt recovery agency's and numerous car parking enforcement companies and in not one case have I ever had to pay anything towards costs or anything more than the original charge. Invariably the bullies back down at the merest hint of opposition and will come to an arrangement or simply give up and pursue someone else who simply pops a cheque in the post to them. 

Ive never actually had to go to court in any of the cases but the willingness to and making counterclaims for costs and expenses seems to do the trick. 

So my guess is that peel probably can't be arsed to take real legal action over 40 quid but will be happy to send increasingly threatening letters before giving up or more likely pass it on to a debt recovery agency...

anyone who Hands over 40 quid on the towpath,  well the old adage a fool and his money.....

Well done indeed.

In Peel's case, my guess is that they would be arsed, and even if they couldn't, being on the books of a debt recovery agency can be quite a personal disaster these days.

Quite agree about the handing over of money on the towpath, though.

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