Jump to content

Controversial widebeam continuous cruiser


Peppers

Featured Posts

This may help http://www.eamonmcnicholas.com/boats.html 

A bit more info here with the forms that should be used http://www.articles.scopulus.co.uk/HM Revenue and Customs Brief 38/09.htm

and I think Colin Stone also published something here http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/vat.htm

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmmmm interesting all this and thanks for bringing this to my attention alan......im about to sign a build contract on the pioneer 60ft x 9ft and was told it will be VAT free......if the above statement of 60 x 12 is correct then i need to make a phone call.........thanks all. 

(Bloody phones small keypad = spelling mistakes) 

Edited by Matt&Jo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 01/07/2017 at 22:54, Matt&Jo said:

Hmmmmm interesting all this and thanks for bringing this to my attention alan......im about to sign a build contract on the pioneer 60ft x 9ft and was told it will be VAT free......if the above statement of 60 x 12 is correct then i need to make a phone call.........thanks all. 

(Bloody phones small keypad = spelling mistakes) 

 

Don't forget that also includes a 5ft high gunwale necessary to meet the requirements. This leads to a completely different style of boat. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They do say it in their publicity, if they're prepared to sign a paper for you stating that they will pay the VAT in case of problems with the VAT folks, you're alright.

Brand New Pioneer 60' x 9'

In Stock Now

£104,950 Ex VAT*

 

  • *VAT Exemptions for liveaboards, Call for more details.
  • Fully Fitted Pioneer 60' x 9'
  • Canaline 60
  • 95kgf Bow thruster
  • EuroCruiser Stern with Seating & Tiller
  • Bow Pram Cover
  • Stern Pram Cover
  • Cashmere White Granite Work Tops
  • Cream Panels on Walls & Ceiling
  • Fitted Washer Dryer
  • High Specification/Extras List
  • Available to view at Wincham Wharf

Peter.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Matt&Jo said:

Does not look 5ft to me from this picture of a new build completed.....

 

 

Then when you buy it :

1) Ensure the invoice shows that you have paid VAT at the ZERO rate.

2) Get a letter from them (signed by a company director) stating that HMRC have agreed that that size / design of boat is VAT Zero rated.

3) Ensure the T&Cs of your contract do not include any liability by the purchaser should HMRC later decide that it does not comply.

 

I have 'no dog in the fight' and it is your money - I would however strongly suggest that you get a 'qualified person' to work out the boats 'tonnage' using the dimensions provided by the maker - it may cost £500 but it may save you forking out £10,000  £20,000in the future.

 

6 minutes ago, bargemast said:

*VAT Exemptions for liveaboards, Call for more details.

But - as has been said before, it is not VAT EXEMPT, if they cannot even get the terminology correct, what chance of understanding the legislation or even measuring the boat correctly.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Then when you buy it :

1) Ensure the invoice shows that you have paid VAT at the ZERO rate.

2) Get a letter from them (signed by a company director) stating that HMRC have agreed that that size / design of boat is VAT Zero rated.

3) Ensure the T&Cs of your contract do not include any liability by the purchaser should HMRC later decide that it does not comply.

 

I have 'no dog in the fight' and it is your money - I would however strongly suggest that you get a 'qualified person' to work out the boats 'tonnage' using the dimensions provided by the maker - it may cost £500 but it may save you forking out £10,000  £20,000in the future.

 

But - as has been said before, it is not VAT EXEMPT, if they cannot even get the terminology correct, what chance of understanding the legislation or even measuring the boat correctly.

It is very clear as has been explained in several previous postings that a boat with these dimensions won't reach the required number to be entitled to be sold with the zero-rated VAT.

 

But if the builders are prepared to sign a paper in which they state that they'll pay the VAT in case it will have to be paid anyway, then that shouldn't be a problem for the buyers of their boats, but I can't see them willing to do that.

 

Peter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, bargemast said:

It is very clear as has been explained in several previous postings that a boat with these dimensions won't reach the required number to be entitled to be sold with the zero-rated VAT.

Agreed - but when a manufacturer dangles a £20,000 carrot in front of a 'newbie' boat buyer (maybe working on a tight budget) the urge is to believe the company and disbelieve some random blokes on an internet forum.

Of course - companies are always law abiding and would never give misleading information.

 

But if the builders are prepared to sign a paper in which they state that they'll pay the VAT in case it will have to be paid anyway, then that shouldn't be a problem for the buyers of their boats, but I can't see them willing to do that.

Exactly - as both of us have stated earlier.

But when the company has 'folded' in a couple of years time ???????????

 

Peter.

See inserts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All very worrying....some not all but some of these new wide beam builders are claiming VAT free boats no matter what the dimensions.....i would never of checked its VAT status prior to purchase as a company should in my opinion sell the vessel tax legaly...is this not false advertising and would a claim not be an option should you be hit with this large VAT bill.........

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Matt&Jo said:

All very worrying....some not all but some of these new wide beam builders are claiming VAT free boats no matter what the dimensions.....i would never of checked its VAT status prior to purchase as a company should in my opinion sell the vessel tax legaly...is this not false advertising and would a claim not be an option should you be hit with this large VAT bill.........

 

I really cannot add anything else :

I have read the 'rules' (and posted them here for anyone to read)

 

I have read the sellers adverts

 

The two do not (to me) match., which is why I suggest you should employ professional help (and one that is prepared to stand his ground against HMRC or in court) if you decide this 'is the boat for you'.

Good luck.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

One boat builder who tells you which boats can be manufactured with Zero rated VAT.

http://pendle-narrowboats.com/vat-on-widebeam-boats/

"WE have worked out the smallest boat to qualify for Non VAT is 60ftx12ft with the gunnel being at 5ft"

my bold. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

See inserts.

But when the company has 'folded' in a couple of years time ???????????

 

I have to agree with you for 100% Alan, as that will always be a big risk factor, unless HMRC is willing to supply you with a paper proof that they're happy for this boat to be VAT zero-rated.

Without being over-pessimistic, I can't see that happening in a hurry.

 

Peter

Edited by bargemast
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, WotEver said:

"WE have worked out the smallest boat to qualify for Non VAT is 60ftx12ft with the gunnel being at 5ft"

my bold. 

OK - I have worked out (using the formula provided on the Government webpage https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services )

60 foot length (18.29 metres)

12 foot beam (3.65 metres)

Gunnel heights (various)

Gunnel 3' 6" ( 1.07m) = 11.43 Tonnes

Gunnel 4' (1.22m) = 13.03 Tonnes

Gunnel 4' 6" (1.37m) = 14.63 Tonnes

Gunnel 5' (1.52m) = 16.2 Tonnes

 

A 70 foot (21.34m) with 12' (3.65m) beam and 4' (1.22m) gunnels would equate to 15.2 tonnes (what a monster !!!!!)

 

Minimum to be VAT Zero rated is 15 tonnes.

 

For interest

a 2m beam NB at 60' length and 5 foot gunnel height would have a tonnage of 8.89

a 2m beam NB at 60' length and a 3'6" gunnel height would have a tonnage of 6.26

I have read that the 'average gunnel' is around 3'6" - 3'8" (but what is 'standard' about boat building ??)

Edited by Alan de Enfield
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Out of interest - applying the formula to the 9' widebeam advertised above :

Length 60' (18.29m)

Beam 9' (2.74m)

Gunnel 4' (1.22m) = 9.78 tonnes

Gunnel 5' (1.52m) = 12.18 tonnes.

 

Ask them to provide their calculations for your perusal.

To get the required 15 Tonnes the 9' wide x 60' long boat has to have a gunnel height of minimum 1.87 m

That wouldn't be a pretty looking boat, would it ?

 

Peter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Couple of points. 

As a vat registered business myself I am required to charge vat at the correct rate on my supplies. If I slip up and charge 0% when I should have charged 20% no-one notices until I have a vat inspection. If I have a 'mistake' revealed I have to pay the missing vat to HMRC immediately but I am also able to pursue my customer for the missing vat and sue them if necessary to collect it. And I would win. 

So my advice is forget about getting  qualified people to calculate the tonnage, employ a solicitor to draft an indemnity contract where the builder indemnifies you for any vat recalculation, should it happen. And make sure you are confident the builder will not be going bust in a year, which leads to the second point 

Second point is check with solicitor if hmrc are entitled to collect the vat directly from you if the company goes under, and they assess vat at 20% is payable on your boat. 

The sums are large enough for hmrc to follow up and collect, if/when they uncover this new scam.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 Couple of points. 

As a vat registered business myself I am required to charge vat at the correct rate on my supplies. If I slip up and charge 0% when I should have charged 20% no-one notices until I have a vat inspection. If I have a 'mistake' revealed I have to pay the missing vat to HMRC immediately but I am also able to pursue my customer for the missing vat and sue them if necessary to collect it. And I would win. 

So my advice is forget about getting  qualified people to calculate the tonnage, employ a solicitor to draft an indemnity contract where the builder indemnifies you for any vat recalculation, should it happen. And make sure you are confident the builder will not be going bust in a year, which leads to the second point 

Second point is check with solicitor if hmrc are entitled to collect the vat directly from you if the company goes under, and they assess vat at 20% is payable on your boat. 

The sums are large enough for hmrc to follow up and collect, if/when they uncover this new scam.

That's why I wrote in post 116 (how nice we can quote post numbers again) :  "unless HMRC is willing to supply you with a paper proof that they're happy for this boat to be VAT zero-rated".

Peter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very good

12 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 Couple of points. 

As a vat registered business myself I am required to charge vat at the correct rate on my supplies. If I slip up and charge 0% when I should have charged 20% no-one notices until I have a vat inspection. If I have a 'mistake' revealed I have to pay the missing vat to HMRC immediately but I am also able to pursue my customer for the missing vat and sue them if necessary to collect it. And I would win. 

So my advice is forget about getting  qualified people to calculate the tonnage, employ a solicitor to draft an indemnity contract where the builder indemnifies you for any vat recalculation, should it happen. And make sure you are confident the builder will not be going bust in a year, which leads to the second point 

Second point is check with solicitor if hmrc are entitled to collect the vat directly from you if the company goes under, and they assess vat at 20% is payable on your boat. 

The sums are large enough for hmrc to follow up and collect, if/when they uncover this new scam.

Thank you for your time and calculations

25 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Out of interest - applying the formula to the 9' widebeam advertised above :

Length 60' (18.29m)

Beam 9' (2.74m)

Gunnel 4' (1.22m) = 9.78 tonnes

Gunnel 5' (1.52m) = 12.18 tonnes.

 

Ask them to provide their calculations for your perusal.

Ive read on another forum what some builders are doing is fitting the boat with very narrow gunwhales in order to allow the internal measurements to be measured to the roof.....not like they are already narrow enough anyhow.....

Could this potentialy loophole the situation....the company i have shown has had 80 boat orders in for the pioneer already. Hope those people are lucky enough to read this forum.

Invaluable info and as rusty had pointed out very nice of you to give me your time .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 02/07/2017 at 10:55, Matt&Jo said:

Very good

Thank you for your time and calculations

Ive read on another forum what some builders are doing is fitting the boat with very narrow gunwhales in order to allow the internal measurements to be measured to the roof.....not like they are already narrow enough anyhow.....

Could this potentialy loophole the situation....the company i have shown has had 80 boat orders in for the pioneer already. Hope those people are lucky enough to read this forum.

Invaluable info and as rusty had pointed out very nice of you to give me your time .

 

I was wondering about that. If the gunwale (correct spelling) is too narrow to walk along, then the roof becomes the height for the notional calculations and possibly, even a narrow boat qualifies. 

But I suspect this has not been tested in court and do you want to risk being The One?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.